Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rizzen_domyrk Jan 23, 2011 22:42:16	My characters are most often then not Bards, as it has been for quite some time. Recently we've started a new campaign and went through character creation with the usual group and our usual DM. A Fighter, a Cleric, A paladin, A rouge, and a druid, so naturally I went with a bard to handle any social situations and because it would help the party out. I made my character and everything went well...Until today. My DM walked up to me and told me about a little Idea he had, instead of the usual campaign settings with towns and cities and other such places for me to make use of my skills, he found a new "campaign". I use the quotation marks for a reason. This is a 1000 page, super dungeon that takes characters from level 1 all the way up to level 20. Although there will be intelligent creatures that I can socialize with and make the most of my bardic skills, the majority of it will be slaughtering and more slaughtering. While I can use bardic music as backup, that only does so much. I'm trying to think of a way to make my bard a little more combat oriented and help his survivability. Any help on this matter would be appreciated and I'll put some more info below on my character. - What already aids my bard for the campaign - Weapon finesse Dex: 15 Disguise: 4 ranks Access to complete D&D 3.5 bard spell list(including bardic spells that deal damage such as bone fiddle) Prestige-class plan: Master of masks - What can't be done - No character re-making No Skill tricks (already asked)  Nothing home-brew Limited to no Forgotten realms / Eberron   - possibilities - Focus on a disguise oriented bard to set up infiltration plans Focusing more on fighting skills Any input or Ideas would be great. Also any way to make more use out of my 17 Cha would be good as well.
#2 droma Jan 24, 2011 1:59:42	I'd drop a post in the Charp Op forums they'd be the most likely people to help you in this situation. At least a few of the 3.5 char op guys should still be hanging around. As for my opinion hit lvl2 and start taking lvls 2-20 in swordsage from book of nine swords, or switch to rogue with a bard splash the rogue has enough skill points to make most of the bard skills still useful, and be human so the multi-classing rules are in your favor. If you want to straight up optimize a bard I'd build it almost entirely the same way I would a rogue optimizing for combat feat wise. Just build with just enough Cha+item to hit your minimum requirement needs to be able to cast appropriate lvl bard spells. If your DM is running the thing I'm thinking of you may as well scrap the idea of being a "bard" and just multi-class to gain more combat benefits.
#3 Mad_Jack Jan 24, 2011 12:05:23	You should repost this in the 3.5 Character Optimization forum further down the page in the Previous Editions section. You'll get better answers there.  Since you're already a skill monkey and a talker, if you have a decent Dexterity you could multiclass into Beguiler, from the PHB II, which would allow you to be a Cha-based light-armored spellcaster with a sneak attack. Pick up a couple levels of Rogue as well - any spell that has an attack roll and a damage roll is eligible for sneak attack damage under standard ranged sneak attack conditions. Also from the PHB II is the Dragon Shaman class, which would give you some incredibly useful auras to buff the party with. Alternately, you could consider multiclassing into a fighter or ranger and working towards the Dragon Disciple prestige class. I'm assuming you're going to be running The World's Largest Dungeon, I think it's called, which is a straight-up hack'n'slash - However, there are several places in it where your diplomatic skills will be greatly beneficial...
#4 kuonji Jan 24, 2011 16:37:29	First off on the "no character remaking" issue: That's a bunch of crap.  Your DM didn't tell you in advance that you would be playing a complete dungeon crawl.  Had you known that, you (and the other players) may have made different choices.  It sounds like you have a history of gaming with this DM and expected something different so I'd at least try to appeal to him to remove that restriction. Lesson to take away from this: always ask the DM what the campaign setting/idea will be for the game.  You could always build a multi-lingual Diplomancer if you really want to crush your enemies...with their own friends.  There's several different diplomancer builds out there and most are flexible depending on what books you have available. Or, if you want to do something less horrible and stupidly game breaking than the diplomancer, you could look for the PrC that opens bards up to full 9th level spellcasting.  Between bardic music (lots of cool feats and such for that), skills, and spells, you can build a pretty effective spellcaster.  It won't be on par with a cleric/druid/wizard but it can do well enough.
#5 navar100 Jan 24, 2011 17:04:14	First off on the "no character remaking" issue: That's a bunch of crap.  Your DM didn't tell you in advance that you would be playing a complete dungeon crawl.  Had you known that, you (and the other players) may have made different choices.  It sounds like you have a history of gaming with this DM and expected something different so I'd at least try to appeal to him to remove that restriction. Lesson to take away from this: always ask the DM what the campaign setting/idea will be for the game.  Or ... Play your bard as you normally would.  He dies in combat (not on purpose).  Oh drat.  Then make a new character more suitable to the campaign.
#6 kuonji Jan 24, 2011 17:20:18	First off on the "no character remaking" issue: That's a bunch of crap.  Your DM didn't tell you in advance that you would be playing a complete dungeon crawl.  Had you known that, you (and the other players) may have made different choices.  It sounds like you have a history of gaming with this DM and expected something different so I'd at least try to appeal to him to remove that restriction. Lesson to take away from this: always ask the DM what the campaign setting/idea will be for the game.  Or ... Play your bard as you normally would.  He dies in combat (not on purpose).  Oh drat.  Then make a new character more suitable to the campaign. Or that, yes, that works too.
#7 crinos43 Jan 25, 2011 14:16:34	I think I know what is being run, and I wholeheartedly agree with the above two statements. Also, might I suggest taking the Dragon Disciple prestige class so you have the extra kick of a breath weapon.
#8 Krusk Jan 25, 2011 14:29:10	The Worlds Largest Dungeon? Its got a pretty good ammount of social situations in it, but it could be like 5 or 6 sessions between them. What are your stats? I am tempted to say play a bard 1/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Prestige class stuff and be all "battle chanter". Snowflake wardance from frostburn is the feat you will want. Cha to damage for a bit. If your stats are awful play a bard 1/sorc 19 and just pretend you were a straight sorc, who happens to sing well.
#9 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Jan 25, 2011 16:38:37	1- What can't be done - No character re-making Complete and utter shash.  Your DM changed the conditions under which you agreed to play.  He either abandons the idea of changing the campaign setting mid-stream or he allows you to create a new character that will better fit the game he's changing it to.  If he refuses then politely walk away because the DM, while possibly not aware of it, is indeed being a jerk. Unless it's YOU who's not wanting to remake a whole new character...
#10 theapokalypseshovel Jan 28, 2011 16:16:17	Depending on your stats, I might suggest multi-classing into swashbuckler for some added toughness and damage. It also fits well with bard thematically, though I would argue for getting another feat for weapon finesse, since you get that for free with first level. I had a player in one of my games do this to great effect, though with your party it looks more like you are going to be needing spellcasting not straight combat.
#11 Neutronium_Dragon Jan 29, 2011 12:13:49	I agree with the other posters that the "no character re-making" stipulation is hogwash. If a DM makes fundamental changes to the game (which includes deciding to run a totally different campaign than was first agreed to) then he's expected to inform/warn the players IN ADVANCE, not spring it on them after the fact.