Typical witches, the classes that jumped to mind at the mentioning of the word:
1. Druid: Close to nature with their primal power source, can shapechange, controller roll, can't get much closer. These will be the most numerous, but variety is good, so lets consider some other option
2. Sorceror
3. Shaman
Edit: + 4. Invoker
Interesting witches. These are classes that do not quite fit at first, but upon consideration become possible with a little flexibility. They will be rare, only one or two such NPCs.
Swordmage
Avenger
Wizard
Anyone have something to add?
On a side note: IRL lore, aren't Warlocks kind of just a male Witch?
That ain't a class, it's a solo monster.
Frequently encountered with at least one Lawyer minion.
Yet what class would be appropriate to mirror their expertise with headology?
Alchemy and skill training nature.
Warlock might fit if you're going for an "old-lady that kills with curses" witch. Just replace fire with "disease-ridden mosquito swarm".... or something.
On a side note: IRL lore, aren't Warlocks kind of just a male Witch?
Depends on which lore you're talking about.
Witches are pagan nature-oriented spellcasters, warlocks are either "oath-breakers" or "spirit callers" depending on the etymology you're looking at. Apparently "warlock" is an insult in Wicca, based on the "Oath-Breaker" term.
For a witch I would generally go for a druid without focusing on beast form combat, or else a feylock, or something in between.
My current Voodoo Fortune Teller is going to be a Shaman|Wizard with an Orb (Crystal Ball), and rituals to predict the future. She summons the spirits of the dead for guidance and protection. She's going to be neat.
Depends on which lore you're talking about.
Witches are pagan nature-oriented spellcasters, warlocks are either "oath-breakers" or "spirit callers" depending on the etymology you're looking at. Apparently "warlock" is an insult in Wicca, based on the "Oath-Breaker" term.
For a witch I would generally go for a druid without focusing on beast form combat, or else a feylock, or something in between.
or stat them out as npcs or monsters. They dont have to have class levels.
Frequently encountered with at least one Lawyer minion.
Don't forget the Mother-in-Law co-hort... shudder
I still half expect to see a witch class before 4e's out. Well, three-quarters expect, really.
or stat them out as npcs or monsters. They dont have to have class levels.
True, but I like my PCs to know that any NPC I use they can as well.
Edit: Invoker is an interesting idea. I hadn't considered it.
Alchemy and skill training nature.
...what does that have to do with manipulating people?
The term witch can cover a wide variety of archetypes and it depends upon which one you are trying to invoke. Probably the only thing they all have in common, is the term which implies the character has some sort of magical, spiritual, or supernatural ability. In fourth edition 14 out of the 18 currently printed classes (over 3/4!) fit this description.
The term witch can cover a wide variety of archetypes and it depends upon which one you are trying to invoke. Probably the only thing they all have in common, is the term which implies the character has some sort of magical, spiritual, or supernatural ability. In fourth edition 14 out of the 18 currently printed classes (over 3/4!) fit this description.
True, I'm just interested to hear what other people think. A bard is magical, but I would not use one to make a witch for example.
I agree, it depends upon what which witch you wish to use (couldn't think of a good fourth "whi" word).
"whip up"
I would use "witch" as a term used by ignorant people to describe pretty much any female spellcaster. Similarly, "wizard" would be used by these same people to denote any male spellcaster. It wouldn't matter to the common rube the technicalities of being a sorceror, a warlock, a shaman, a druid, a wizard, or what have you. You cast spells that don't come from the gods? You're a witch or a wizard.
We encountered something similar from a neighbor when we were discussing how to set up the network in the house. He's an IT, I was doing some C++ programming at the time. She came over and said "Oh, you're Computer People!" as if knowing one aspect of computers and networks meant that we knew everything about computers. She seemed surprised that we couldn't instantly diagnose her computer based on "The screen doesn't look right. There's no floor but there's a wall." (Her task bar got set to a vertical display.) I had to laugh. "Computer People" brought up the image of leprechauns that live under your desk and come out to back-up your files at night and defrag your drives.
"whip up"
There we go. I knew someone with better alliterative skills would get one.
For the former, a warlock or a sorcerer. For the latter, just about any kind of primal class could be re-fluffed to fit, though a Druid would probably fit best.
leprechauns that live under your desk and come out to back-up your files at night and defrag your drives.
Time to fill out the patent application!
True, but I like my PCs to know that any NPC I use they can as well.
But then you miss out on the most helpful simplification for DMs that 4th edition brought. There are "monster" stats for humans, dwarves, halflings, eladrin, dragonborn... There really is no point in statting out NPCs as PCs because they're not supposed to earn their living raiding dungeons and saving the world anyway.
If the witch is only there as a window dressing, to provide information, or to sell the PCs some potions, she doesn't need stats at all. Save yourself preparation time and only give something stats if the PCs are supposed to kill it.
Generally witch is a gender-neutral term and a male witch is just that: a witch.
This is not totally true. ;)
personally, i'd offer a homebrewed hybrid (or encourage the hybrid) of driud and shaman for a primal powered witch. i think that way you could give up the beast form to pick up some features of talking tothe dead and scrying through the primal spirits as well as warding with primal spirits.
if the desire is an arcane route, IMO it should be a warlock hybridized with a light sprinkling of sorcerer or wizard, but not both at once.
an interesting similar alternate might be a heretical witch using hybrid concepts from cleric and invoker and avenger themes. i'd place heretic as a leader role with a strong word of persuasion or something like that. giving them some charmlike ability over enemies and allies.
"Those the have no clue at all and are wrong!" Come on that was a cheap shot!
Compare the name with the message. Ironic. *titter*
As to the substantive part of what was said; I wouldn't trust a person with a vested interest in any philosophy to accurately and truthfully categorize people of another philosophy. It's just basic conflict-of-interests, (ignoring the religious implications).
Compare the name with the message. Ironic. *titter*
As to the substantive part of what was said; I wouldn't trust a person with a vested interest in any philosophy to accurately and truthfully categorize people of another philosophy. It's just basic conflict-of-interests, (ignoring the religious implications).
For one thing this is a discussion on lore not on philosophy or religion. I just felt it could have been stated without the cheap shot. I don't care either way say what you want.
Secondly my name HotHead is not a statement on my demeanor but on my love of fiery foods. Though I am laughing at the irony if you do not know this! LOL
I agree, it depends upon what which witch you wish to use (couldn't think of a good fourth "whi" word).
You just couldn't sand"witch" one more in could you? :D
To the OP: It really does depend on which tradition you are drawing from in referring to witches. Outside of Gardner's popularization of the term in the 1950's in association with Wicca, the term 'witch' historically referred to ANY social outsider, particularly those with a radically different religious practices and/or knowledge set (midwifery and herbalism for example) than the population of the dominant community.
So your community of witches would mostly likely be a community of beings who have been ostricized from the larger culture of the region for practices (likely religious) that the larger culture does not want a part of. If the region this community in is dominated by organized religions, then either a rival religion, those who worship a primal source, or those who hold fealty to no gods at all would likely be labeled as witches. By contrast, in a realm where worship of nature spirits predominates, a theistic group would likely be ostracized and labled "witches."
If you wanted to go for some irony, consider making your village of witches a monotheistic religion that disavows the default polytheistic gods of the campaign world as false and advocates the worship of their one true God (who may or may not actually provide them with divine power).
Perhaps they view primal, arcane, or even psionic power as the instrument their God provided them to work miracles. Maybe they even disavow ALL forms of magic as false powers from false sources and that only the natural powers of man (i.e. martial power and the use of skills) are good.
In any case, most of the town's inhabitants would probably have no special powers what-so-ever, just as most followers of a god or worshippers of nature have no magical abilities despite their belief. Only the religious and/or community leaders (who may be one and the same) are likely to actually have real magical powers and could be of any class depending upon what you model your witches to be.
...what does that have to do with manipulating people?
herbology= knowledge of plants and how to use them, alchemy is brewing potions. I can easily see most withces having both.
herbology= knowledge of plants and how to use them, alchemy is brewing potions. I can easily see most withces having both.
I said headology, mate. ;)
I said headology, mate. ;)
Oh, I'm a big fan of Granny Weatherwax
I definitely see the Druid and Shaman classes working as witches. Primal magic and witchcraft are a good mix.
There is a Witch class for 4E by a third party publisher on drivethrurpg but I don't know anyone who has used it, so couldn't comment on the quality.
As for the whole warlock debate, I understand the members of the Pagan community who refer to themselves as warlocks are akin to the skinny white boys who call themselves gangsters ;)
"Those the have no clue at all and are wrong!" Come on that was a cheap shot!
He could have perhaps phrased it better, but the over all message is accurate - that the traditional christian definition is completely inaccurate and based wholly on the early Catholic Church demonizing pagan religions to destroy their power base and fortify the Church's own base. Which is the traditional tactic of pretty much every major religion in the history of the world (at least the western world).
For example, Set is everybody's favorite evil baddy, but once upon a time he was a guardian god, even seen as somewhat of a hero/champion, until the Osirian cults began gaining power and needed a scapegoat to use as the bad guy. And since the Osirian cult was wholly Egyptian, whereas Set actually was imported from outside Egypt and was basically the outsider, the "Other," he was the perfect choice.
For another example, see Pan or the Green Man being turned into the traditional image for Satan. The White Wolf game Scion even takes this route and runs with it, where Pan actually turns himself into Satan as part of his revenge for his treatment by the other Greek gods.
He could have perhaps phrased it better, but the over all message is accurate - that the traditional christian definition is completely inaccurate and based wholly on the early Catholic Church demonizing pagan religions to destroy their power base and fortify the Church's own base. Which is the traditional tactic of pretty much every major religion in the history of the world (at least the western world).
For example, Set is everybody's favorite evil baddy, but once upon a time he was a guardian god, even seen as somewhat of a hero/champion, until the Osirian cults began gaining power and needed a scapegoat to use as the bad guy. And since the Osirian cult was wholly Egyptian, whereas Set actually was imported from outside Egypt and was basically the outsider, the "Other," he was the perfect choice.
For another example, see Pan or the Green Man being turned into the traditional image for Satan. The White Wolf game Scion even takes this route and runs with it, where Pan actually turns himself into Satan as part of his revenge for his treatment by the other Greek gods.
Thanks CelticMutt, he clarified what was meant and it is cool. No offense taken and I concede your point.
True, I'm just interested to hear what other people think. A bard is magical, but I would not use one to make a witch for example.
wow. why not?
IMO a prescient bard makes one of the most solid choices for a witch.
headology?
how about viscious mockery? vs will attack that deals psychic damage and gives the target a penalty to attack rolls.. or Cutting Words... a pull instead of an attack penalty for that charming "come hither" type of witch.
Hows Compulsion for a level 5 daily?
the bard has tons of luck based abilities, and the bard in general has tons of mind effects and head-game type powers.
how about herbology?
trade ritual casting for alchemy at first level(though either would really suit a witch, depending on your flavor preferences)...
As a bard you've got more skill choices than most, and access to all of the knowledge skills, as well as heal. a witch is always there to lend a hand with esoteric knowledge or even the occasional healing poultice..
I'm really missing what about the bard makes them harder to see as a witch...
I'm really missing what about the bard makes them harder to see as a witch...
The legacy issues of bards past is the most likely reason. Just as the term 'witch' is loaded down by stereotypes so too is 'bard' given the number of foppish fictional characters often given that title.
Depending on the type of witch you're going for though the bard can be ideal. They can inflict harm or heal with their words. They can have a familiar. They can use wands and certain blades as implements for their magic (coins and cups probably applies more to their ritual casting but can be worked in as well if you wanted a Tarot-based witch concept). They can perform rituals (including brewing potions) and have knowledge of all sorts of secret things (with the bardic knowledge feat to boost this even further). They cover all the bases of a traditional western witch.
I'm currently playing a dwarf Fighter who picked up the Spirit Talker feat. Call Spirit Companion was reflavored to summon a ghostly dwarf "ancestor" spirit. It's useful in combat as a roadblock, and adds a ton of flavor.
As others have pointed out it depends on your preferred flavor.
I like the idea of a female Wizard|Warlock with wolfoid minions... because then they would be the powerful Witchalocks! :D
Seriously, though, it really is all about how you view witches. If I were to run a game where the term "witch" came up it would probably be used by divine and martial characters to refer to the arcane, primal, psionic, and shadow power source.
If bullcrap "inborn power" Charmed ****. Sorcerer.
If typical Halloween hag with black cats and broomstick. Warlock of Infernal pact. (Maybe star pact could work too if you incorporate tarot cards and stuff)
If you've ever actually talked to a self proclaimed witch, they'd tell you druid. But I would argue they're more like Artificers. Maybe not the typical expectactions of an artificer with steampunk technology. But the fact they would use potions, and lots of magical instruments in their spellcraft. It's a shame all the rules of magic don't apply to their personal lives.
I thought about this myself as a "Satanist". Stereotypical: Obviously Warlock with Infernal pact.
What they think of themselves: Sorcerers through and through.
What they actually are: Bards who convince people their bullcrap is legit when it's just watered down objectivism.
I'm kind of my own sect. It's not really Laveyan Satanism but more like theistic demonology mixed with the Star Wars Sith. And in practice that's just a barbarian and i end up hating everything LOL!
Atleast untill there's an anti-social class who's powers look like "if there is no ally within 30feet of you this attack deals an additional 2d6 damage. Cause allies just get in your way"
"Everyone but you gets -3 on attack rolls, because they suck."
4E Druids are a mix between the New Age concept of "pagan" druids and World of Warcraft druids - neither of which are witches.
I'm betting this is 3.5? Dread Witch from Heroes of Horror.
No 4th. Did you read the first post? The OP is asking for thoughts on what class to use as a witch, since 4th does not specifically have one as of yet.
On a side note: IRL lore, aren't Warlocks kind of just a male Witch?
Warlock also means "oath breaker" so it has more than a little negative contain to bit.
As for class, it can be spread out easily to several.
A hedge wizard comes surprising close to some concepts.
Here's a few links to check out and refine what it means in your campaign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Shadows
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteWitch
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.WickedWitch
Thanks for this bit, too. I always were interested in Scion, but now even more so :D
Instead of D&D I might give Scion a go after finishing my Exalted Campaign some time in the future :D
Completely OT
The treatment and combination of varied world mythologies in Scion is a work of utter genius. I highly recommend it.