I have in the past been accused of being a rules lawyer, and I do not deny the accusation in full. I do tend to know the rules of the game pretty well, enough so that I can tend to call off page numbers from memory of certain rules that come up alot. That being said, I do try to keep the players straight as much as the DM does also.
When 4e came out, I (like everyone else) was new to the rules. Through playing up to 3rd level now, I am starting to become very familiar with the rules, mainly because after the session, I will go and look up different rules and creatures that we fought that session. For instance:
1. Falling Damage. We had a situation where an enemy decided to jump off of a ledge resulting in a fall of 80 feet to escape the party. We all assumed the damage had not changed from 3.5e (being 1d6 per 10ft), but I learned later that it was now 1d10 per 10 feet in 4e. 8d10 is much different than 8d6 and it could have resulted in a dead foe. Now, we are all pretty much sure that we will see this foe as a recurring enemy, hehe.
2. Goblin Hexer was fought (same one from above actually) and it was using its stinging hex power. However, I (the fighter who was hexed) was not getting a save at the end of my turn to remove the effect. I didn't move for 3 rounds, but as soon as I did, I took 3d6 damage which put me to unconscious.
3. Goblin Hexer was also using its Lead from the Rear power against melee attacks instead of only against ranged attacks, so it was avoiding my attacks as the fighter and I was only taking out its minions instead of the hexer.
Anyway, you get the idea. There have been some other things, but those were the ones that stood out.
So, I want to make sure that the DM and the Players are all using the rules right, but I don't want to have to sit there and be a rules lawyer or nagger either. It would be very hard for me to be able to question the DM because I don't sit at the table with my nose in the monster manual.
Any suggestions? Some of our encounters have almost been total party wipes due to misused powers or mechanics. I just wonder how to make the team use the rules correctly without coming off like a lawyering ass.
Thanks in advance.
In that situation I continued the game while allowing the player to research the rule. What we agreed was that if the rule would change the course of events then it was important enough to look up but the game would move on. There is also a time limit on this. We set that as when your turn comes back around, if you have not found it then you lose your appeal but can look for it later for clarification. If it means a character died and potential reversal keeps them from dying then I allow two rounds and we will revisit the characters turn in the previous round. All in all, the rule of thumb is always wait until the end of the session and note the rule for future corrections.
Whatever you do, don't sit at the table and ambush your DM with these problems in front of everyone else. Nobody likes to be made out to be a fool, even if that is not your intention.
Be civil, be polite, and be diplomatic. If your DM is a decent fair person they will see your point and move to correct these things in the future. However, if you came at me every session with something else I had done wrong, eventually I would just hand the reigns over to you, wish you all the best and leave you to run the game while I went to watch some TV.
Like I said, be polite, be civil, and do it away from the table.
If you don't really know the DM, you should ask a what his/her policy is on rules challenges.
When I run a game, I make it clear I'm fine if someone wants to call me on a ruling, but if it's not just a "reminder" then they should be able to look it up in short order, otherwise we just wait until the end of the session to research for next time. If I screw up something and it results in serious problems for the PCs, then I'll usually "undo" it or make it up in some way.
When it comes to monsters, I don't think you should be overly concerned about the rules, as the DM's prerogative is to change whatever he feels like for those, as long as it's on purpose. If you are able to succeed in the fights, and have fun, I would recommend not looking up a monster's stats if you are just a player and don't DM other games.
As I do DM games, if I notice a discrepancy with a monster we have positively identified with Monster Knowledge checks, I might go to the DM afterwards and ask, "Did you mean to make those changes with monster X for that fight?"
If not, then I will explain or offer to explain whatever was misunderstood so it can be addressed and run correctly in the future. If it was intentional, then I say, "OK, just checking" and generally let him do with monsters as he pleases.
The DM is not beholden to the rulebooks 100% of the time, the DM can "cheat" and make stuff up occasionally to make sure fun comes first. If it is an honest mistake though, a DM should be able to handle input from his players and correct things.
Anyway, I would ask the DM what the policy is on rules corrections or monster abilities, and just go with that. I would also reiterate my recommendation to not look up every single monster you fight unless you plan on using it in your own games, because that leads to distrusting the DM, even though he is under no compunction to run them exactly as they appear in the book.
I do all in my power not to address it during the current session, it is more of a review between sessions really.
I do DM on occassion, so as far as looking at the creatures we fight, it is more curiosity than anything else that leads me to look. I am curious about everything in the new edition.
I think I will just let it slide as far as monsters go and just point out some rulings on like movement, falling, concealment, that type of stuff during a fight. More of a quick reference than anything else.
Thanks all.
Every once in awhile he finds his way is better than the official rule, so it becomes a new house rule.
Every once in awhile there was an extenuating circumstance I couldn't possibly have known about such that there was no mistake. No problem.
It's just a game.
I let the DM know, and he fixes it. No problem.
Every once in awhile he finds his way is better than the official rule, so it becomes a new house rule.
Every once in awhile there was an extenuating circumstance I couldn't possibly have known about such that there was no mistake. No problem.
It's just a game.
My group's style of resolution is like Navar100's. Granted, we have a fairly experienced group. When something is odd, the group argues for about 30 seconds. If it's not resolved by then, someone looks it up in the rulebook when it is not their turn. If it is still not resolved, which is really rare, it goes in the DM notepad for in-depth research. In all cases, a house-rule is improvised until the correct answer is found.
If I disagree with the DMs decision I'll bring my concerns up with him out of the game. If he still keeps with his decision, that's fine - its a houserule and as long as it is consistantly applied, I'll work with it.
If it turns out a rule does need to be changed, then we change it going forward. There's generally noneed to retcon past decisions.
As a player, most of the DMs I've had had been playing since they were 10, two of them could litterally open the DMG, PHB, MMI, MMII, and a couple of other books within a page or two to anything someone needed. If I ever had a problem with a ruling, I'd bring it up at a break or after the session, or when we were hanging out outside of the games and a D&D conversation popped up.
Or, you could go up to your DM and say, “I don’t want to be a nuisance but I noted some rulings last night don’t reflect what’s in the book. Did you make a house rule?” If you DM asks what you mean, politely point out the errors and provide page numbers.
If they respond well to that say, "In the future, how would you like me to handle these sorts of issues? I know we're all learning, but I don't want to disrupt play."
This usually isn't a problem since I'm largely the person who taught our DM how to play D&D.
So, I have a question to pose to all of the players out there. What do you do when after a gaming session, you discover that your DM has made mistakes during past sessions, and those mistakes are making the encounters significantly more difficult?
I have in the past been accused of being a rules lawyer, and I do not deny the accusation in full. I do tend to know the rules of the game pretty well, enough so that I can tend to call off page numbers from memory of certain rules that come up alot. That being said, I do try to keep the players straight as much as the DM does also.
When 4e came out, I (like everyone else) was new to the rules. Through playing up to 3rd level now, I am starting to become very familiar with the rules, mainly because after the session, I will go and look up different rules and creatures that we fought that session. For instance:
1. Falling Damage. We had a situation where an enemy decided to jump off of a ledge resulting in a fall of 80 feet to escape the party. We all assumed the damage had not changed from 3.5e (being 1d6 per 10ft), but I learned later that it was now 1d10 per 10 feet in 4e. 8d10 is much different than 8d6 and it could have resulted in a dead foe. Now, we are all pretty much sure that we will see this foe as a recurring enemy, hehe.
Well thats just a simple mistake, if you all thought it was d6 then it can slide.
2. Goblin Hexer was fought (same one from above actually) and it was using its stinging hex power. However, I (the fighter who was hexed) was not getting a save at the end of my turn to remove the effect. I didn't move for 3 rounds, but as soon as I did, I took 3d6 damage which put me to unconscious.
Alright, now that is messed up because it says "save ends" after the abilites effect.
3. Goblin Hexer was also using its Lead from the Rear power against melee attacks instead of only against ranged attacks, so it was avoiding my attacks as the fighter and I was only taking out its minions instead of the hexer.
Anyway, you get the idea. There have been some other things, but those were the ones that stood out.
So, I want to make sure that the DM and the Players are all using the rules right, but I don't want to have to sit there and be a rules lawyer or nagger either. It would be very hard for me to be able to question the DM because I don't sit at the table with my nose in the monster manual.
Any suggestions? Some of our encounters have almost been total party wipes due to misused powers or mechanics. I just wonder how to make the team use the rules correctly without coming off like a lawyering ass.
Thanks in advance.
Assuming the DM and you are friends you should be able to have an intelligent conversation with him about the rules and site the above examples to strengthen your argument. It sound slike all the DM really need to do is review the rules before game time so he doens't over look anything.
just be polite and dont be naggy about it and he/she should be polite about recieving corrections.
Rule #2: When the DM is wrong see Rule #1.
Rule #2a: If the DM really is wrong, then you have the wrong DM.
Rule #2ai: Fix the DM.
Rule #2aii: Replace the DM.
When we play, some of us take notes on anything we noticed was inconsistant with the rules stuff like "Forgot to allow saves", or "falling damage is D10, not 6" and then after the session share back and forth with how we thought it went.
Unfortunatly the one thing we never do is say "Monster X can do Y, and you did Z". To us looking up monsters and reading their stats (Unless you plan to DM that same monster later) just makes accidental metagaming harder to avoid. Even if we do look up a monster, out of neccessity, we do our best to pretend we had not. It helps keep the people who don't know about the feygrove choker's cool ability suprised.
In addition, if we know a given monsters correct stats and powers by bringing it up as a player, you open the door to the following answers. None of which help anyone.
1- "I know, but I knew you guys had read it so I changed how it works"
2- "Yeah, but I altered them for the setting to change things up, but you are players and didn't need to know that"
3- or simply "Quit trying to metagame by reading up on monster stats."
It is diffrent if the DM says "Hey Krusk, you ran these last month, am I reading this power the same way as you?" than it is if I were to say "Hey Bill I ran this last month, and I read the power to work diffrently than you."
Your DM sounds like he was just oing by previous editions, and forgetting to allow saves, ect. Nothing malicious, so my whole post was mostly an FYI.
One way to help out might be, when struck by a monsters power, to say "OK, I got hit with A, do I make a save or does it end automatically after a duration." (The most common ways for things to end )Then you can do the remembering and it seems more like you are inquisitive than judgemental.
One of the things I've explained to my players' recently is the importance to keep the game moving quickly rather than always being 100% correct. If I am in personal doubt, I always tend to rule in the players' favour.
So, I have a question to pose to all of the players out there. What do you do when after a gaming session, you discover that your DM has made mistakes during past sessions, and those mistakes are making the encounters significantly more difficult?
Tell him, and then whatever he decides to do about it just roll with it - though if he doesn't make any other changes you can ask him to compensate with the additional xp you would then deserve.
Any suggestions? Some of our encounters have almost been total party wipes due to misused powers or mechanics. I just wonder how to make the team use the rules correctly without coming off like a lawyering ass.
Sounds like you're doing it right to me. You wait until after a session to look up details rather than stopping the game in the middle to nitpick. As long as you're polite when bringing up these errors later and simply pointing them out as opposed to whining that you've been cheated and abused there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. If the DM and other players aren't going to read and follow basic rules then that should be a MAJOR announcement at the start of the campaign. If you have a reasonable expectation (and you do) that the game will follow the rules as written as a matter of course then attempting to get others - especially the DM - to do so is NOT being a rules lawyer.
If they have to tell you to shut up because THEY DON'T CARE, then you're being a rules lawyer. Otherwise they should be grateful for your attentiveness and ADVICE. At the very least it always helps to play "the right way" first and THEN decide to do things differently than to play "the wrong way" and get annoyed when someone has to tell you you're doing it wrong.
One way to help out might be, when struck by a monsters power, to say "OK, I got hit with A, do I make a save or does it end automatically after a duration." (The most common ways for things to end )Then you can do the remembering and it seems more like you are inquisitive than judgemental.
With the goblin hexer's stinging hex power, the problem was that I didn't even know I had a hex on me (because I had no experience with that creature before). The DM simply told me that the hexer "smiled" at me deviously and that was it. If I had been told that I had an effect put on me, even if I didn't know what it was, then I would have at least known to ask if there was a save to end the effect. As it was, I didn't know he was doing anything other than taunting me (since I am the fighter), so it was definitely a surprise when it occured. I suppose he could have been rolling saves for me, but he wasn't (no DM screen at the time, hehe).
Thanks for the insight.
The DM simply told me that the hexer "smiled" at me deviously and that was it.
That is a mistake itself. 4e works under the assumption that you know whenever you are effected by a power and what that power does. That isn't always logical, Hunter's Quarry for example doesn't make much sense that way. But it is fast, simple and doesn't require a lot of metagaming to remember which powers you are aware of and which you are not.
Trying to play it the other way would be a mess. The DM would have to sit down and draft a list of which powers people know about and which they don't. Marks, for instance, require that the target know about them. On the other hand spells like Hellish Rebuke will be more powerful if monsters are not away of the side effects.
Jay
Hi everyone I'm a rules lawyer and I have the same problem.
With the goblin hexer's stinging hex power, the problem was that I didn't even know I had a hex on me (because I had no experience with that creature before). The DM simply told me that the hexer "smiled" at me deviously and that was it. If I had been told that I had an effect put on me, even if I didn't know what it was, then I would have at least known to ask if there was a save to end the effect. As it was, I didn't know he was doing anything other than taunting me (since I am the fighter), so it was definitely a surprise when it occured. I suppose he could have been rolling saves for me, but he wasn't (no DM screen at the time, hehe).
Thanks for the insight.
It might be a little bit of a pain for you, but whenever an enemy does something like that on init, make an effort to say "Does this do anything or is he just a nice fellow?"
Like JayM said, the system assumes you know what conditions are on you.
Rule #1: The DM is always right.
Rule #2: When the DM is wrong see Rule #1.
Rule #2a: If the DM really is wrong, then you have the wrong DM.
Rule #2ai: Fix the DM.
Rule #2aii: Replace the DM.
Shouldn't rule #2ai be the ultimate last resort? It sounds REALLY painful.
I’m the DM in question
No I’m not mad but I feel the need to clarify a few things.
Falling damage- yah that one’s on me. I thought it was d6 I goofed on that one.
Save on stinging hex- I was making the saves, or I should say you was :D
Remember when I ask you all to roll 20 sided dice and tell me what you get for really no reason or I will say it’s for a DC 0 check. Congratulations you now just made you’re saving throw for something that will happen 2 hours or maybe 2 weeks from now. As the DM I know what is going to happen to you guys. If I suddenly go, you need to make a saving throw that’s going to start the whole “Why, what’s going on” You will also remember I change out dice occasionally why do I do that? I’m making saves for you guys.
As for feeling effects. I reread the hexxer and NO where can I find it saying when your affected by this power you suddenly feel X or Y or B or A. The way I read it is that it’s a delayed effect to slow someone down. Yup you can absolutely save against it and it goes away (you failed the save for 3 rounds) but nowhere does it say I have to tell you your affected by it. You were at the time level 2 with no experience in fighting this monster. Never having faced this opponent before there was NO way in knowing what happen to you. No knowledge check was made either. I don’t hand out info to players just because they never faced a monster before and I am also in the category that not EVERY power lets you know you’re affected by it. Poisons with delays, slow onset diseases and such that you will be affected by will not let you know right away. Whether or no certain powers warn you (I don’t think any should unless they say so) is a discussion for the group.
As for the hexxer taunting you with a smile. What can I say she was a confidant woman. I like giving my bad guys flavor.
Lead from the rear does say ranged attacks. And if she was a by the book hexxer then you would have a complaint. You will notice you killed the “chief” in like 5 rounds but she was still alive. Since you didn’t finish the area below and I don’t think your coming back I can tell you she was augmented by eating the fruit of the tree we was having you all looking for so had a few extra powers. Yes that made her exceptionally nasty but hey you was getting more xps from her for it. I have told you bosses and sub bosses (my name for guys made by me) will be special.
So I can understand your frustration but understand that I’m sure I’ll make mistakes but as you can see you can’t ALWAYS rely on rule books those 2 spirals I have contain nasty surprises for you all. Like the villagers that ran off after you brute striked the mayor
So, I have a question to pose to all of the players out there. What do you do when after a gaming session, you discover that your DM has made mistakes during past sessions, and those mistakes are making the encounters significantly more difficult?
I have in the past been accused of being a rules lawyer, and I do not deny the accusation in full. I do tend to know the rules of the game pretty well, enough so that I can tend to call off page numbers from memory of certain rules that come up alot. That being said, I do try to keep the players straight as much as the DM does also.
When 4e came out, I (like everyone else) was new to the rules. Through playing up to 3rd level now, I am starting to become very familiar with the rules, mainly because after the session, I will go and look up different rules and creatures that we fought that session. For instance:
1. Falling Damage. We had a situation where an enemy decided to jump off of a ledge resulting in a fall of 80 feet to escape the party. We all assumed the damage had not changed from 3.5e (being 1d6 per 10ft), but I learned later that it was now 1d10 per 10 feet in 4e. 8d10 is much different than 8d6 and it could have resulted in a dead foe. Now, we are all pretty much sure that we will see this foe as a recurring enemy, hehe.
2. Goblin Hexer was fought (same one from above actually) and it was using its stinging hex power. However, I (the fighter who was hexed) was not getting a save at the end of my turn to remove the effect. I didn't move for 3 rounds, but as soon as I did, I took 3d6 damage which put me to unconscious.
3. Goblin Hexer was also using its Lead from the Rear power against melee attacks instead of only against ranged attacks, so it was avoiding my attacks as the fighter and I was only taking out its minions instead of the hexer.
Anyway, you get the idea. There have been some other things, but those were the ones that stood out.
So, I want to make sure that the DM and the Players are all using the rules right, but I don't want to have to sit there and be a rules lawyer or nagger either. It would be very hard for me to be able to question the DM because I don't sit at the table with my nose in the monster manual.
Any suggestions? Some of our encounters have almost been total party wipes due to misused powers or mechanics. I just wonder how to make the team use the rules correctly without coming off like a lawyering ass.
Thanks in advance.
I fake stupid. I do this in any circumstance where I feel a need to challenge the decree of a person in a position of authority, including bosses, parents, and the lady friend.
DM: "The rule is X."
Me: "Really? I thought that's what it was, too, but I think I remember spotting a clarification online that made me rethink it. I think it's actually Y. Lemme take a quick look and see."
Works like a charm. Then I'm not offending anyone ("Oh, well obviously I'm not an idiot for misinterpreting the rule; there are LOTS of idiots out there doing exactly the same thing! One is sitting at my gaming table!").
1) Players are responsible for knowing what their class powers do. When it seems like too good to be true I have them dig out of the book. If they miss out on the bonus then I will at times retro the effect otherwise I tell then they are responsible for knowing what their power(s) do.
2) When I want to make sure something is to work a certain way I ask a player to look it up: like healing surges, conditions, death rolls etc. Then we all know what the rule is.
3) I will review the rules after the session to see if I ruled rightly/wrongly.
4) I try to fix situations where I ruled something wrong quickly in game. I do have the wiggle room of giving +/- 2 or 5 on certain conditions, retro some action, remove a foe etc.
5) I try not to argue with my players on rules. I usually give them the advantage. After which I do 3 and announce it before the next session. I lost too many friends in my youth with stubbornness.
6) If want to do something not really covered, I wing it as best I can.
1) When I play I try to know everything that I can do rule wise.
2) I let the dm rule stand in game.
3) I ask the DM to review the rule before the next session.
4) I accept the rule and move on. But then I become more aware if the DM contradicts himself/herself.
5) When I can longer accept the inconsistency of rules, I look for greener pastures. ;)
Falling damage- yah that one’s on me. I thought it was d6 I goofed on that one.
That's an easy thing to overlook - I've been DMing 4ed since it came out and I hadn't noticed the change to falling damage! :embarrass What can I say, my players don't fall very often.
Save on stinging hex- I was making the saves, or I should say you was :D
Remember when I ask you all to roll 20 sided dice and tell me what you get for really no reason or I will say it’s for a DC 0 check. Congratulations you now just made you’re saving throw for something that will happen 2 hours or maybe 2 weeks from now. As the DM I know what is going to happen to you guys. If I suddenly go, you need to make a saving throw that’s going to start the whole “Why, what’s going on” You will also remember I change out dice occasionally why do I do that? I’m making saves for you guys.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. You ask the players to make a series of saving throws before an encounter for the conditions you plan to have the enemies inflict upon them? Or are you making saves for them without letting them know? I'm not sure that you understand the mechanics of saving throws in 4ed... or I'm entirely misreading what you're describing, in which case, never mind.
As for feeling effects. I reread the hexxer and NO where can I find it saying when your affected by this power you suddenly feel X or Y or B or A. [...] Whether or no certain powers warn you (I don’t think any should unless they say so) is a discussion for the group.
I'm pretty sure it specifies in the DMG that targets are aware of conditions that are acting upon them. How they -react- to that knowledge is based on prior experience, intelligence, etc., but they are aware that they've been marked, hexed, etc.
As for the hexxer taunting you with a smile. What can I say she was a confidant woman. I like giving my bad guys flavor.
One hundred per cent behind you on this one. I always try to give at least a quick description of what enemies -do- to inflict conditions. "The skeleton drives one of its bone spurs into your flesh - with a sickening snap, the bone spike breaks off in your side. You feel your flesh begin to chill around the wound..." then I'll hand the player the index card that says "ongoing damage 5 necrotic (save ends)".
Just my two cents, of course. And we're all still getting used to the new edition, so mistakes and different interpretations of the rules are pretty standard.
Falling damage- yah that one’s on me. I thought it was d6 I goofed on that one.
Here is the important question. When they took the falling damage, be it the mistaken d6 or the correct d10, did you have them fall prone? I missed that the first time it happened to the benefit of my players as the Paladin jumped down 10 feet, took his d10 damage, and charged the skeleton to save the wizard.
Mistakes happen, but its how they are handled when they do that makes or breaks the game. I have been in groups where, when a rule is used incorrectly or a new rule is added (see 3.5 splat books) then it results in a session destroying argument from hell. Had this once during an Eberron game where some warforged tossed grappling hooks and ropes over the airship and down to the players sailing ship below. Then I had some of the other troops jump onto those ropes and begin working their way down in the same round. The player immediately freaked and started screaming that you had to wait a round to do that kind of thing and that I could not do it. Even after pointing out the reference from the book I got it from he would not hear the end of it. Needless to say that was not the way it should have been handled and the group eventually broke apart.
So, I give the advice that you pay attention to how your players are reacting to your interpretation of the rules and ensure that they are in on the discussion when something goes wrong. I know from experience that, sometimes, being in that chair means you get very defensive when someone calls you out on something.
Sometimes it's realized that an errors been made & it can be smoothed over without breaking stride playwise. Effects suddenly catch up, the next attack doesn't do as much damage, downed characters are found to be merely unconscious, whatever....
Sometimes a ruling is made for the moment & then revised upon later oog reseach of a rule.
Sometimes an error is discovered to have been made outside/after the game. Things that since we can't just rewind time, just have to remain. At wich point we shrug, note it down, & vow not to repeat the same mistake again in the future.
No heated arguments, no destroyed friendships, no angst.
For my 4e session which I DM for our newness to the system I basically do this:
1) Players are responsible for knowing what their class powers do. When it seems like too good to be true I have them dig out of the book. If they miss out on the bonus then I will at times retro the effect otherwise I tell then they are responsible for knowing what their power(s) do.
2) When I want to make sure something is to work a certain way I ask a player to look it up: like healing surges, conditions, death rolls etc. Then we all know what the rule is.
3) I will review the rules after the session to see if I ruled rightly/wrongly.
4) I try to fix situations where I ruled something wrong quickly in game. I do have the wiggle room of giving +/- 2 or 5 on certain conditions, retro some action, remove a foe etc.
5) I try not to argue with my players on rules. I usually give them the advantage. After which I do 3 and announce it before the next session. I lost too many friends in my youth with stubbornness.
6) If want to do something not really covered, I wing it as best I can.
1) When I play I try to know everything that I can do rule wise.
2) I let the dm rule stand in game.
3) I ask the DM to review the rule before the next session.
4) I accept the rule and move on. But then I become more aware if the DM contradicts himself/herself.
5) When I can longer accept the inconsistency of rules, I look for greener pastures. ;)
Good advice with the ring of experience.
Thanks for sharing.
Wow 21 responses that’s a lot.
I’m the DM in question
No I’m not mad but I feel the need to clarify a few things.
Falling damage- yah that one’s on me. I thought it was d6 I goofed on that one.
Save on stinging hex- I was making the saves, or I should say you was :D
Remember when I ask you all to roll 20 sided dice and tell me what you get for really no reason or I will say it’s for a DC 0 check. Congratulations you now just made you’re saving throw for something that will happen 2 hours or maybe 2 weeks from now. As the DM I know what is going to happen to you guys. If I suddenly go, you need to make a saving throw that’s going to start the whole “Why, what’s going on” You will also remember I change out dice occasionally why do I do that? I’m making saves for you guys.
As for feeling effects. I reread the hexxer and NO where can I find it saying when your affected by this power you suddenly feel X or Y or B or A. The way I read it is that it’s a delayed effect to slow someone down. Yup you can absolutely save against it and it goes away (you failed the save for 3 rounds) but nowhere does it say I have to tell you your affected by it. You were at the time level 2 with no experience in fighting this monster. Never having faced this opponent before there was NO way in knowing what happen to you. No knowledge check was made either. I don’t hand out info to players just because they never faced a monster before and I am also in the category that not EVERY power lets you know you’re affected by it. Poisons with delays, slow onset diseases and such that you will be affected by will not let you know right away. Whether or no certain powers warn you (I don’t think any should unless they say so) is a discussion for the group.
As for the hexxer taunting you with a smile. What can I say she was a confidant woman. I like giving my bad guys flavor.
Lead from the rear does say ranged attacks. And if she was a by the book hexxer then you would have a complaint. You will notice you killed the “chief” in like 5 rounds but she was still alive. Since you didn’t finish the area below and I don’t think your coming back I can tell you she was augmented by eating the fruit of the tree we was having you all looking for so had a few extra powers. Yes that made her exceptionally nasty but hey you was getting more xps from her for it. I have told you bosses and sub bosses (my name for guys made by me) will be special.
So I can understand your frustration but understand that I’m sure I’ll make mistakes but as you can see you can’t ALWAYS rely on rule books those 2 spirals I have contain nasty surprises for you all. Like the villagers that ran off after you brute striked the mayor
page 57 of the PHB last paragraphs, targets of affects are always fully aware of the effect. The player should have known if he moved he'd get pwnd, so not knowing is the exception text that needs to be in there, because the general rule is it is not. its repeated somewhere else but.. i cant recall.
as for the woman smiling, i smile sometimes to when im winning or have a trick up my sleeve in various things, if the players cant separate the monsters from the GM there's plenty of trouble to come!
i dont mind being asked ahead of time for certain rolls, with certain GMs that i really trust, i knew a GM that asked for pre rolls just so he could GM fiat things later regardless of the rolls, in other words add or subtract reasons for the pre rolls so that the low roll landed in the bad thing he wanted to happen, then could alter show how it "coincidentally" fell in that area.
regardless of that pre-rolls, and rolls made by GM instead of player all strongly distract from the fact were playing a game... in my opinion.
page 57 of the PHB last paragraphs, targets of affects are always fully aware of the effect. The player should have known if he moved he'd get pwnd, so not knowing is the exception text that needs to be in there, because the general rule is it is not. its repeated somewhere else but.. i cant recall.
as for the woman smiling, i smile sometimes to when im winning or have a trick up my sleeve in various things, if the players cant separate the monsters from the GM there's plenty of trouble to come!
i dont mind being asked ahead of time for certain rolls, with certain GMs that i really trust, i knew a GM that asked for pre rolls just so he could GM fiat things later regardless of the rolls, in other words add or subtract reasons for the pre rolls so that the low roll landed in the bad thing he wanted to happen, then could alter show how it "coincidentally" fell in that area.
regardless of that pre-rolls, and rolls made by GM instead of player all strongly distract from the fact were playing a game... in my opinion.
Going to have to disagree Page 57 says and I quote " whenever YOU affect a Creature" nowhere does it say when a creature affects you. Yes its a minor point but why the hell would a level 2 character with no training in goblins suddenly become encycolpedia goblinicia. I may as well hand each player the monster manual for each monster they fight and let them read up on it first. Im sorry but thats not how it works in my game. If the mage would have siad I make a knowledge check and got a roll then yah i would have said. The hexxer uses hexes to slow you all down so if shes lookng at you she may be using a variety of hexes such as A, B , or C.
Bleed effects, blinding and such are of course noted right away. Its hard ot miss blood gushing out of you but a small tingle while your fighting 5 other guys in the middle of combat. No sorry not in my world. Get a few levels, face these guys again sure. The NEXT time he fights a hexer and she looks at him hell be.. "dammit i have to be careful, she may have hit me with a hex. " Now he needs to decide if he is or n ot. And take the ch ance, this adds to tension and excitment. Your way is boring and not worth running in my eyes.
As for the woman smiling i said " The woman looks at you and smiles evily" I the gm didnt smile, the woman did. I WANT my badguys to have flavor, i want them more then numbers and hit points and attack bonuses.
And for the rolling of dice, if you dont trust me dont be in my game. I play my monsters to win, you can ask my players i treat my monsters as if there MY pcs becuase they are. If they trust me? why the hell would you play a game with someone you wouldnt trust? A GM can kill you at anytime. Hell i could have have made any sort of monster in there for them to fight if i wanted them dead. THe dice are rolled in advance and i take them in order.
In my games I weave a tale. My players woke up and hill in robes with nothing to tie themtogther except for a single tatoo. There starting to have flashbacks now about something that happened in thier past that will affect there gaming lives for the next year to come. They have a nemisis now. A one time monster will now start to plague there lives and get back at them for hurting her. The game has stepped outside of the module and added world flavoe
I dont want this just to be a game where we sit down and roll dice. I want a story where we all take parts in it. At the end of the day thats whats most importan to me. You seem to want a game where you can crunch numbers and decide each thing to a minute detail. I want to weave a story. The numbers are secondary. There important and if it means a player living or dying yup well check it out to the very end but if it means that i can get them fired up about killing a monster then i "won" and i play this game to win also.
Going to have to disagree Page 57 says and I quote " whenever YOU affect a Creature" nowhere does it say when a creature affects you. Yes its a minor point but why the hell would a level 2 character with no training in goblins suddenly become encycolpedia goblinicia. I may as well hand each player the monster manual for each monster they fight and let them read up on it first. Im sorry but thats not how it works in my game. If the mage would have siad I make a knowledge check and got a roll then yah i would have said. The hexxer uses hexes to slow you all down so if shes lookng at you she may be using a variety of hexes such as A, B , or C.
Only problem i see here is the fact that a lot of players by lvl 2 have abilities to grant extra saves, and bonuses to saves. If the player has no idea he is even making saving throws, how are they able to use their abilities?
I am not saying that the players should have any clue as to what the goblin or other monster can throw at them, but they should have full knowledge that they are effected by something that a save can end.
Going to have to disagree Page 57 says and I quote " whenever YOU affect a Creature" nowhere does it say when a creature affects you. Yes its a minor point but why the hell would a level 2 character with no training in goblins suddenly become encycolpedia goblinicia. I may as well hand each player the monster manual for each monster they fight and let them read up on it first. Im sorry but thats not how it works in my game. If the mage would have siad I make a knowledge check and got a roll then yah i would have said. The hexxer uses hexes to slow you all down so if shes lookng at you she may be using a variety of hexes such as A, B , or C.
Bleed effects, blinding and such are of course noted right away. Its hard ot miss blood gushing out of you but a small tingle while your fighting 5 other guys in the middle of combat. No sorry not in my world. Get a few levels, face these guys again sure. The NEXT time he fights a hexer and she looks at him hell be.. "dammit i have to be careful, she may have hit me with a hex. " Now he needs to decide if he is or n ot. And take the ch ance, this adds to tension and excitment. Your way is boring and not worth running in my eyes.
As for the woman smiling i said " The woman looks at you and smiles evily" I the gm didnt smile, the woman did. I WANT my badguys to have flavor, i want them more then numbers and hit points and attack bonuses.
And for the rolling of dice, if you dont trust me dont be in my game. I play my monsters to win, you can ask my players i treat my monsters as if there MY pcs becuase they are. If they trust me? why the hell would you play a game with someone you wouldnt trust? A GM can kill you at anytime. Hell i could have have made any sort of monster in there for them to fight if i wanted them dead. THe dice are rolled in advance and i take them in order.
In my games I weave a tale. My players woke up and hill in robes with nothing to tie themtogther except for a single tatoo. There starting to have flashbacks now about something that happened in thier past that will affect there gaming lives for the next year to come. They have a nemisis now. A one time monster will now start to plague there lives and get back at them for hurting her. The game has stepped outside of the module and added world flavoe
I dont want this just to be a game where we sit down and roll dice. I want a story where we all take parts in it. At the end of the day thats whats most importan to me. You seem to want a game where you can crunch numbers and decide each thing to a minute detail. I want to weave a story. The numbers are secondary. There important and if it means a player living or dying yup well check it out to the very end but if it means that i can get them fired up about killing a monster then i "won" and i play this game to win also.
good thing i wouldn't want to be in your games, your attitude and play style is seeping through your posts, and neither are desirable in my opinion.
good thing i wouldn't want to be in your games, your attitude and play style is seeping through your posts, and neither are desirable in my opinion.
QFT!
When I am running my games I happily tell the player that they need to make a save. There is a level of joy in a players face when he defiently resists that acid that was breathed on him by the black dragon. It is critical that in your "tale" you don't forget a few fundamental things about D&D:
1. It is a game meant for all persons present to enjoy.
2. It is not the DM vs. the Players. The game and story is there for all to be involved in and be a part of.
3. At the end of the day the story the DM writes should be about the "heroes." In every D&D session, the "heroes" are the players.
Your players may just love the way you run your games and the feel that you bring to the table. I am definetly with Daeva in that I would never be a player at your table.
good thing i wouldn't want to be in your games, your attitude and play style is seeping through your posts, and neither are desirable in my opinion.
There is no attitude you unfairly attacked my style of play, every point your bring up i have a logical counter argument. You in my opnion want to turn the game into board game that dice control everything. I dont see it that way.
QFT!
When I am running my games I happily tell the player that they need to make a save. There is a level of joy in a players face when he defiently resists that acid that was breathed on him by the black dragon. It is critical that in your "tale" you don't forget a few fundamental things about D&D:
1. It is a game meant for all persons present to enjoy.
2. It is not the DM vs. the Players. The game and story is there for all to be involved in and be a part of.
3. At the end of the day the story the DM writes should be about the "heroes." In every D&D session, the "heroes" are the players.
Your players may just love the way you run your games and the feel that you bring to the table. I am definetly with Daeva in that I would never be a player at your table.
1. Correct
2. Correct again.
3. Are you sure? What if the players are evil? They dont know who they are. They have no memory. The "heroes" right now are determing who they are. The story centers on them but that doesnt mean the world is stopped when there not there The fighter killed a mayor last session. Hes going ti have to deal with teh fall out with that.
But thats fine. As I wouldnt have you at my table, if you wouldnt wnat to be there. Been gaming for 20+ years using same system. Players have always said they enjoy it so I doubt im going to change becuase someone says im making the game less... game like and more story oriented. Look up a game call Amber. Lovely game, do dice at all. Still think its the best RPG out there pretty much.
Daeva you qoute about a GM you have to trust, It makes ZERO sense to game with someone who you cnat trust. Why the hell would I cheat, I dont have to cheat, every rule, every action Im in charge off. I hand out the loot, i determine what monsters there going to fight pretty much. So when i ask for them to roll dice in advance and i take the rolls in order then guess what there in order. That should be good enough. I dont lie in real life, in my job why the hell would i lie in a game.
My players are level THREE not thirty. They do not know everything that will happen to them. That in my opnion strips the mystery from the game. Hell i dont let them instantly know what a magic item does when they make the arcane roll. They have to use it and experiment with it. Then use an extended rest to figure out ONE item. As players become more experinced they will gain benefits. Right now there one step aboive farmers. In 10 levels should the warrior know that he may have been hit with a hex. Absolutely. Will he know he was hit with some demons ability that leaves no tangible effect. Nope. If they dont like that then they better find a new DM. Players arent gods and omniscent, these players less then any. They DONT know anything they know that they woke up. Thats it. Nothinig else. Your commenting about a game you know nothing about, which is fine but you still havent told me where im wrong. You interpert rules diffrently then I do. Thats cool. And if you was DM then I would follow your rules. But until you are in one of my game and try it Id like to see how you can justify im wrong.
QFT!
When I am running my games I happily tell the player that they need to make a save. There is a level of joy in a players face when he defiently resists that acid that was breathed on him by the black dragon. It is critical that in your "tale" you don't forget a few fundamental things about D&D:
1. It is a game meant for all persons present to enjoy.
2. It is not the DM vs. the Players. The game and story is there for all to be involved in and be a part of.
3. At the end of the day the story the DM writes should be about the "heroes." In every D&D session, the "heroes" are the players.
Your players may just love the way you run your games and the feel that you bring to the table. I am definetly with Daeva in that I would never be a player at your table.
Also as for the Black Dragon Breath attack. That would require an obvious save and they would take it right then and there. They ONLY use the hidden saves when they dont know there being affected by something. As i said i like to keep some thing mysterious. Not to the point of stupidity.
They ONLY use the hidden saves when they dont know there being affected by something. As i said i like to keep some thing mysterious. Not to the point of stupidity.
i am not trying to be a pain here, but with abilities like the hexxer, when the effect is on the player, and every time he moves he takes damage, that would be a pretty obvious sign that there is something wrong with him and needs to be resolved. i don't know, that may just be me, but it would seem rather obvious to my players.
i am not trying to insult your play style, but this is just a point i feel the players should have more say in. like i said before, they don't need to know what is effecting them, just that they need to make a save at the end of their turn(s)
1. Correct
2. Correct again.
3. Are you sure? What if the players are evil? They dont know who they are. They have no memory. The "heroes" right now are determing who they are. The story centers on them but that doesnt mean the world is stopped when there not there The fighter killed a mayor last session. Hes going ti have to deal with teh fall out with that.
Yeah, I am sure. Your looking at the word to litterally. If it makes it easier, replace Heroes with Main Characters and go from there. The players are the focus of the story, thats one of the major draws to any RPG. If the NPC's became the major focus of the story the game would be a hell of a lot less interesting.
My players are level THREE not thirty. They do not know everything that will happen to them. That in my opnion strips the mystery from the game. Hell i dont let them instantly know what a magic item does when they make the arcane roll. They have to use it and experiment with it. Then use an extended rest to figure out ONE item.
I can understand this house rule, makes sense. I go by the book which means, short of artifacts the short rest is good enough. But there was that element of mystery that was removed when WoTC changed how identification was conducted so I can see the why for this.
Right now there one step aboive farmers.
Ummm.....
Ok, maybe in 3.X I could buy this. But level three they are a step above farmers? In 4E the players are considered superior and heroic at level one, hence the huge jump in HP compared to the old days. They are considered the be superior to most soldiers, and that would mean well beyond the scope of a farmer.
Also as for the Black Dragon Breath attack. That would require an obvious save and they would take it right then and there. They ONLY use the hidden saves when they dont know there being affected by something. As i said i like to keep some thing mysterious. Not to the point of stupidity.
Again with the litteral. Drastic and obvious examples make the best examples. As a player I would expect the DM allow me to make my save at the end of my turn if it applies. Thats ME and MY, not the DM makes the save FOR me. That would just ruin the moment completely. Again, your players may love your games and enjoy your play style, which is all well and good, but to me it sounds like they enjoy your stories and at least one player is disatisfied with your playstyle. Have you ever just stopped, and asked the players how they felt?
i am not trying to be a pain here, but with abilities like the hexxer, when the effect is on the player, and every time he moves he takes damage, that would be a pretty obvious sign that there is something wrong with him and needs to be resolved. i don't know, that may just be me, but it would seem rather obvious to my players.
i am not trying to insult your play style, but this is just a point i feel the players should have more say in. like i said before, they don't need to know what is effecting them, just that they need to make a save at the end of their turn(s)
I, for one, completely agree. If the character moves and suddenly there is a sharp pain he is going to know something is wrong. And if there is a status affecting the character that allots a save to end the character should be informed that they need to make a save when their turn has concluded, as is the standard order of things. Just don't tell them why so you can retain that element of surprise and secrecy.