We stop the character generating incomplete, the DM stateing, just go with the High,,, you 2 elves and the gnome can finish generating when you go home and read the stuff on elves
And we are in Return to the Keep..
I've had a HELL of a time with my DM.. and it got so bad, I got kicked out.
Part A
we are fighting a Bhut (something I've never heard of) The group consists of 2 Gnomes, one of which is a Cleric/Thief (the DM's wife) and the other another Gnome is a Cleric/ something.... and 2 elves (my wife and I). She is a fighter and I'm a Ranger
We ALL have NORMAL weapons, no magical or blessed. We start fighting the Bhut, and the Bhut is getting hit, it has arrows sticking in it, a dagger in it, and per the DM, has lost more than 1/2 of its HP.
The Bhut is surrounded and decides to break off combat.....the DM, states, "the monster is LOPING away" and the DM stands up, grabs his shoulder and shuffles around, showing us what the monster (Bhut) is doing. I state we go after it and continue the attack.
For some reason, we aren't allowed rolls to hit, even though it is HURT, and it keeps LOPING.... the DM says "you see the blood trail disappears ....what do you do "
Since it was LOPING and EXTREMELY hurt, with weapons sticking in it, I and the other ELF weren't following the TRAIL, the monster was in plain view the DM never increased the pace of the Bhut or said it disappoeard
all of a sudden, I'm ambushed
I Immediately ask the DM, "How is an ambush possible, the monster was extremely hurt, per your words" and it was LOPING away... NOT "running full tilt or anything..." and we were after IT, not following a trail. We are 2 HEALTHY Elves in full pirsuit mode and 2 semi-healthy Gnomes, all with infravision.... we never lost sight of it
I ask the DM how fast does it move normally? and he states "It moves much faster than you "
So I say, Forget it, forget it....let's see how the anbush goes, if I die, I can generate a new character. "
I get hurt, but we eventually have it incapacitated, no HP, on the ground .... after a short while, the mocster starts reviving..... I try to decapitate.... no luck, others try. No luck, I use a silver dagger.. no luck finally, a cleric blesses a weapon and we kill it
PART B
Later in the adventure, we are fighting spiders, and killing a bunch. One of the Gnomes, the THIEF, is collecting spider body parts and POISON sacs of the spiders. Me, coming from Original and AD&D FIRST Edition, start talking to myself? "Is this person an ASSASSIN?" and "Is this person EVIL? (My Elf Ranger is Lawful Good). When we get back to town, the Gnome dos NOTHING with the spider parts, no disecting, no analysis or any kind.... so eventually all the collected parts should be useless..... EXCEPT THE POISON.
When the gaming is done, and I get home, I receive an email
It BLASTS me for 1) metagaming the ambush part, 2) arguing with the DM, 3) to quote "It is UNFAIR to others to be saying "Is this person an ASSASSIN" and "Is this person Evil" and 4) I was wrong to use past games experience to try things like a silver dagger, since my character is just beginning (the cleric, blessing my sword was ok)
When I got home, I also downloaded the monstrous manual ..... and what I read about the BHUT REALLY bothered me. How the heck, with normal weapons, was it possible for us to injure the Bhut SEVERELY.... we shouldn't even have been able to TOUCH the Bhut (remember, the DM said it had lost more than half its HP.
The DM, took imbrage with my "You told me that the monster is much faster....... but per the Monstrous Manual, Elves and Bhut move the same..... PLUS it was injured and you stated LOPING, while we were RUNNING and both elves have ENDURANCE as proficiencies."
It got even worse. I read the players handbook and the Book of Elves ..... and made the mistake of using the word "Sylvan" instead of "Wood" I told the DM, I'd like to finish my character..... my wife and I... can we be Sylvan" and "Do you allow kits? I'd love to be an ARCHER"
The DM says, "No, you can ONLY use things in the players handbook or the DM guide" " I THINK you just want to be SYLVAN for the +1 in combat"
Nothing I said worked. I eventually told the DM to go get a dictionary and look up the word Sylvan ....... it mmeans "wood" I also pointed out that I the ARCHER would make no USE of the +1 from STRENGTH, since he uses a bow (my DEX is 18) ... nothing worked.
The DM wrote back, that if I had been roleplaying my character the wrong way for him to be SYLVAN (forgetting that I had had NOTHING to read BEFORE THEN, and it was the DM who picked HIGH for me. (which I mentioned) He also said, "If I want to be sylvan, I have to reroll."
I wrote back, "We had NOT finished the character gen, and were told we could, AFTER reading......so why would I have to reroll? The GNOME went home and was allowed to finish changes to his character."
DMs Answer.... "Well, I'll let you be a Sylvan Elf, but there will be restrictions. OH, please tell me WHY you want to be Sylvan"
Part C
During the spider killing, we also discovered prior victims ... and collected their coins, jewelry and useful weapons. As we got to each body, the DM gave out numbers, # of gold, # of silver, # of rings, swords, bows..... my wife and I wrote it all down.
We get back and anyone wanting weapons took what is needed, the rest sold. We then divide the loot........ X amount of gold, X amount of silver and the bracelet/rings value added in. And we divided by # of characters
the next day's phone call with the DM "HOW can u take stuff away from players and insist on your way of dividing. The method of dividing is "The person who kills something, gets THAT treasure amount"
1) The adventuring GROUP had not come up with a way to divide the loot, so we just figured the value and divided evenly. 2) WHILE we were counting the TOTAL of the LOOT, NOONE else suggested a different way and 3) that phone call method of dividing loot that the DM was stating.... the first time I've ever heard of it.... and I've been playing D&D since late 1970sor thereabouts. I called one of the other players and asked what he thought of the method of dividing loot .... finding the total and dividing by # of characters....... and that is the same way he had always fone it
well..... it was a mess.... I THOUGHT 1) the players MADE their characters.. anything was good, so long as per the rules being used and the dice gave you the needed #s.. NOT the DM, I thought the PLAYERS decided the division of loot, not the DM ....... but the topper was when the DM told me, "If you had said you want to be a WOOD ELF instead of a SYLVAN ELF, there would have been no problem.....
What should I have done, ambushed by a mpnster that is LOPING from combat AND that is moving MORE slowly than us (DMs description LOPING and severely woundedand body language), in clear view,
what should I do when a DM says "It moves MUCH facter than you" ... but the monstrous manual says otherwise (I had already been slapped down at the gaming table)
(I've screwed up as DM before and other DMs have screwed up and killed me... and the reaction was "Ooops, sorry..... let's reincarnate that character" or some such, with everyone laughing
What to do when you use experience from past games ...... and the DM states" Your character should not know to try a silver dagger," when his other weapons aren't working.
And , what should I do when I accidentally use the word "Sylvan" (gotten from the book of elves) instead of "Wood" per the Players handbook..... and the DM refuses to look at the 2 books and say..... "wow, the same"
Lee
2. Talk these issues over with your DM instead of complaining to random strangers. Talking about problems is really underestimated.
since commenting on his wife's Gnome Thief collecting the poison sacks from the dead spiders (and pondering her character's type and allignment), ANY and all that I ask.... just got me in deeper water ...
asking a simple question "In 2ed, which player/characters are allowed to USE poison?" I('d remind him that 2ed was new ....... no use.
Only one person other than me had a bunch of D&D experience outside of THIS group. (the Gnome THIEF played the game with her husband (the DM) before .. and my wife has played just one time before.
The other person with experience is unwilling to remind the DM of "the characters were unfinished on DAY 1...you said we could finish later" , " unwilling to remind the DM that he, himself was allowed to FINISH his characterr generation later, unwilling to comment on HOW a Bhut was severely hurt with normal weapons, loping away (not running) ...... but can escape 2 healthy Elves after breaking off from combat, unwilling to say a thing regarding the DMs method of loot division or that it was only the DM who disagreed with the method by which the loot was divided ( equal parts for everyone) ...
THAT is why I gave a background, then asked the questions at the bottom........ even though I thought they were rhetorical
I've NEVER had a DM tell the group how to divide loot or when the books don't agree with his words. (The Bhut is faster).... be unable to say, "Wow, sorry about that." or when the DM says something (loping away and does body language) when later reminded of it ....refuses to look at it and deal with the situation fairly..... and takes it out in emails, rather than at the table.
Since I'm out of the group, I HAVE noone to ask the questions at the bottom, but since those actions were SO unexpected, I came here for some answers from neutral parties
Lee
Anyway, this feels like a situation that goes way beyond something that forumites can solve for you. This is something you need to talk to your DM about in a neutral sitaution, like over a cup of coffee at a coffeehouse or something. Ask for his point of view, why he made the decisions he made. Because that's what's missing in your story, the other person's POV. I'm sure he had good reasons (in his head) for doing what he did, even if it was only uncertainty.
Good luck! (and for Gond's sake, go easy on the Caps Lock)
But his other advice is right. This is kinda beyond what a forum can help with. And like Krusk suggest, it sounds like a pretty bogus situation.
To me it sounds like a heavy fisted DM running things his way, which is fine if that's what people want. But ignoring the rules causes a lot of problems when some people want to live by them.
You could try talking it out with the group, but...
Well, normally I'm in support of working together to stay with a DnD group, the whole, act like an adult thing. But what you're writing about, is just all kinds of trouble. If it were me, I'd say it's time to move on. Because sometimes adults gotta know when to run away too.
Not really sure what svendj's problem with occasional cap'd words are. DOES IT BOTHER YOU WHEN SOME WORDS ARE BIG AND EASY TO READ OR CAPITALIZED TO ACCENT THEM?
Yes.
Especially when the site I'm using to write my comments has neat little functions buttons that allow me to add more emphatic emphasis to my comments, all without MAKING IT LOOK LIKE I'M YELLING.
Yes it does sound unbelievable, but that's the way it is.
I waited a week even, to let things settle. Recontacted..... even mentioned that "Every DM, at some time, has gotten wrapped up in playing the monsters and such, that details got mixed up....... " something to find a reasonable out....... the reply was "What is the purpose of this email? It only hardens my resolve...."
So yes, I gave up... it was pointless.... I just wrote here, since there was a topic "What should a DM do? .... so thought I'd ask some questions
I'll be doing some Star Trek with another group when possible..... and my students here in Taiwan are having fun learning original rules D&D .......
thanks for all the replies
Lee Shackelford
Linkou, Taiwan
PS if anyone here is in Taiwan, feel free to write
"What should I have done, ambushed by a mpnster that is LOPING from combat AND that is moving MORE slowly than us (DMs description LOPING and severely woundedand body language), in clear view,
what should I do when a DM says "It moves MUCH facter than you" ... but the monstrous manual says otherwise (I had already been slapped down at the gaming table)
(I've screwed up as DM before and other DMs have screwed up and killed me... and the reaction was "Ooops, sorry..... let's reincarnate that character" or some such, with everyone laughing
What to do when you use experience from past games ...... and the DM states" Your character should not know to try a silver dagger," when his other weapons aren't working.
And , what should I do when I accidentally use the word "Sylvan" (gotten from the book of elves) instead of "Wood" per the Players handbook..... and the DM refuses to look at the 2 books and say..... "wow, the same""
First of all, I'll make the observation that it sound like both you and your DM are pretty stubborn and committed to being right, to the point where you're obviously put off by the way he's presenting his ruling, and beyong that to the point where he feels he has to kick you out of the game.
Well guess what, there's no real right way to play D&D. It's about whatever agreements that everyone can make in order to have a fun time. If you're not having fun, then the DM isn't doing a good job. If the DM isn't having fun, then don't expect him to provide you a game.
Main thing here sounds like your group's expectations weren't set before you started the game. These sorts of questions are the age old philosophical arguments:
DM railroading vs. Player agency
DM house rules vs. book rules (though to me, it sounds more like railroading)
Player knowledge vs. Character knowledge
What resources are available to the player to create characters
What sort of game you and your friends would want to play in, vs. the kind of game your DM wants to run.
It sounds like your DM isn't in the place where he wants to deal with the vagaries of Player Agency, where it sounds like you're used to getting your way. In order to have a good time, it sounds like you'll both have to give something up. Otherwise, find a DM that suits you more, or run a game the way you want to have it run.
Not really sure what svendj's problem with occasional cap'd words are. DOES IT BOTHER YOU WHEN SOME WORDS ARE BIG AND EASY TO READ OR CAPITALIZED TO ACCENT THEM?
YES I'm bothered when someone PUTS different words in a SENTENCE in a big FONT. Reminds me of reading a poorly formatted comic book, actually xD But it seems the OP learned to let go. He earns a
Anyway, life's too short to game with morons. Seems like you have enough other stuff going on, so have fun with that.
2) You need to relax when it comes to your GM because it sounds like he is pretty new to the job and it would really help him out if you could take his poor explanations with a grain of salt. Do not challenge his explanations because that just creates a You vs Him mentality. Instead go along with his explanations because it keeps the story running.
1) Your GM is not very good and does not possess the wit necessary to create reasonable explanations at the drop of a hat. When he wants the story to go a certain way, and he can only create unreasonable explanations, it can lead to a lot of player discontent.
2) You need to relax when it comes to your GM because it sounds like he is pretty new to the job and it would really help him out if you could take his poor explanations with a grain of salt. Do not challenge his explanations because that just creates a You vs Him mentality. Instead go along with his explanations because it keeps the story running.
Hi lry,
Yeap, that's the conclusion i had come up with...... so I just said, "Let's see how the ambush goes, if I die, just create a new character"
Most of the negative and strangeness came through emails...it started when I told him my wife and I finished reading the material for ELVES... and had decided to be "sylvan" Elves....just trying to finish the character generation
.and my eviction from the group came through emails..... he didn't want to discuss any of what was going on..... with any of the group
no matter, I'll be having fun with my English students 2 weekends from now..... they're doing Castle Caldwell....
original rules is a lot of fun
happy gaming to all
Lee
1) When ambushed in the scenario you described, asking a question as to how it happened is fine since the DM likely got caught up in his plans for the encounter, but it's often better just to go with the flow and ask about it after the game when people aren't so into the game etc.
2) If the DM says one thing but the monster manual says another, accept the DM at his/her word. DMs are notorius for modifying monsters from the monster manual specifically to keep players from learning the monster manual and metagaming. DMs are also notorius for forgetting one or more detail about the many monsters in the book and fudging it to make the encounter fun.
3) When the DM says that you don't know to try a silver weapons when your others aren't working reply with something like "I was simply going through the weapons I had available before having anyone in the party use any spells. Besides, even as a new adventurer I would know that some monsters are effected by unusual metals, which silver qualifies as for a weapon."
4) When you use the word Sylvan but mean Wood, explain fully to your DM what you mean. This is't much of an issue in some editions, but it means a big difference in 2nd edition. When you, as a player, say you want to play a Sylvan elf, expect the DM to think you're talking about the subrace of elves titled "Sylvan" and not meaning wood. If you want to play a wood elf, then you have to spell it out.
As a side note, I'm not surprised that the DM is letting his wife go with an assassin type character and he might have gotten extremely angry at you for "spoiling the big secret." (or possibly she got angry and took it out on him who then took it out on you) I have yet to hear about someone playing an assassin who doesn't try to keep it very secret and then get very upset when someone else figures it out, especially if they are talking out loud, even if just to themselves. But I also rarely play in games with people playing assassins and don't allow them in games I run.
It seems to me that you got out of a game that would have caused a great deal of conflict between you and the DM. From your side of the story, he sounds pretty bad and wrong, but without hearing his side I can't state that with certainty.
Best remedy for the other problems is a pregame discussion of expectations and how things will be done. ie treasure division. One can only chalk it up to a bad experience