What Makes a Player Good? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

What Makes a Player Good?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hjustin
Sep 17, 2010 11:22:36 Greetings, all.

Most of my 30 year gaming career has been spent behind the DM screen. I'm about to begin as a player in a new 4E campaign and I'm pretty excited about the opportunity. I've been fortunate in the last few months to play at a few Game Day events and D&D Encounters. I've had a ball and I think playing makes me a better DM. Now I get to build and run one character rather over a long period of time (man, the choices!).

I'd like to know what this community considers a really good D&D player. What separates the good from the not-so-good? What do the guys who win the big challenge at Gen Con have that all the teams that went home early don't? I guess I'm looking for specific advice on how to be a good player.

Thanks.
#2
zmortis
Sep 17, 2010 12:07:59 Asking what makes a good D&D player is like asking why someone has a particular favorite actor, or why they prefer a certain kind of ice cream. Everyone is going to have their own opinions of what makes a good player.

I think essentially it can be summed up as follows: The kind of player who makes the game fun for the rest of the people playing. That to me is the quintesential quality, but there are potentially hundreds of paths to reach that goal.

I suggest starting with a character/player attitude which is cooperative, social, fun loving, and most importantly doesn't feel the need to hog the spotlight during the game.

I hope this helps.

p.s. I started playing D&D back in 1978 so we are of about the same generation.
#3
hjustin
Sep 17, 2010 12:27:21 Thanks, Z. I suppose my question is rather broad and there isn't likely a definitive answer. I would enjoy learning the opinions of the community though.

One of the reasons I even bring this up is because of an experience I had in a recent LFR game at a public venue. Full table, six players. I've noticed that practically no one from this pool of local gamers wants to play a leader. No one wants to be stuck with the healing duties. Seeing a need, I was happy to roll up a cleric for the game and embrace it 100%.

What I found as the game progressed was that other players were instructing me what to do on my turn and commenting on the way I build my characters. Why did you choose that? You should have taken this. I'm not a min/maxer but I do look for optimal interactions among abilities. But I'll take a low ability score and use that as a flaw to flavor my character's personality or back story. The guys weren't belligerent by any means but I found myself getting increasingly agitated as the day went on. At one point, I was ready to hand my character sheet to one of the guys and go have lunch. I stuck it out though, managed to enjoy myself, and was very grateful for the opportunity to play.

I couldn't help but wonder though, because I only made the leap to 4E last winter, if I was doing it wrong. Was I perceived as a bad player? Being the conscientious sort, I take to heart the feedback and opinions of others, and if there truly is need, I will work my rear off to improve. Maybe in this case it was nothing more than my approach to the game differed from most of the other guys (not saying one style trumps the other--they're simply different).

And so as I approach this new play opportunity, I throw this question out to the online community here. I think the feedback may be handy.
#4
nute
Sep 17, 2010 12:39:26 Look at the Alignment block on their character sheet.
#5
geoffa
Sep 17, 2010 13:02:03 As zmortis suggests, you're going to get a different answer from just about anyone you ask, but here's my stab at what makes a good player.

1. Alert, on task, and keeping things moving. It really bugs me, both as DM and player, when people are constantly asking questions that were just answered five minutes ago. If you don't zone out when other players are acting, then you will be ready to act when it comes to your turn. When it is your turn, don't take five minutes to plan out the absolute optimal move if you can quickly do something pretty effective.

2. Know the rules, but don't start unnecessary arguments. Have a good idea what your character can do. Have at least a rough idea what you can expect from other characters and monsters. Don't stop and argue every time you think someone is applying a +1 modifier incorrectly. This also helps with the keep things moving.

3. Be helpful but not pushy. It's nice to help newer players figure out how to use a power more effectively, or share some advice on how to build a certain character type. It is annoying if you run another player's turn (move here, use this power, no don't spend your action point now, wait until next turn, etc.)

4. Interesting character that doesn't have to be the star. Make sure your character can do something effective in combat and something effective out of combat. You don't have to follow every suggestion of the optimization forum, but don't make yourself a dead weight to the party. On the other hand, realize that there are 3-5 other characters in the group and in some cases your most helpful contribution is going to be to step back and let another character shine. This also applies to role-playing. Give your character a bit of personality without forcing the rest of the group to deal with your melodrama for long periods of time.

5. Hit the role-playing sweet spot. This is the one that is going to vary the most from group to group, but figure out how in-character your group wants to be. Some people prefer to treat D&D as more of a tactical miniatures game. Don't get all huffy when those people won't say every line in character (with appropriate accents). Some groups like to ham it up. Even if you're not a professional actor, give it your best shot. If you absolutely can't reconcile your style with the rest of the group, you may be better off searching out a different group.

6. Bring snacks. Everyone likes to snack when they are gaming. Don't mooch off the same person all the time, and try to share that responsibility. Exactly what snacks are preferred varies from group to group, though anyone who does not like girl scout cookies is probably chaotic evil.

That's all I can think of right now, though it turned out to be longer than I expected when I started typing.
#6
zmortis
Sep 17, 2010 13:13:27 It seems your experience is that you ran into a group of players who were of the roll play min/max character variety. I personally (in both pen and paper or MMORPGs) dislike playing with groups like that because I prefer interesting characterizations over optimized ones. Not that I want to play a character which is tragically gimped, but I don't mind playing the odd sub-optimal variant which is not the usual approach taken by most.

Like yourself I frequently find myself playing the healing role, and generally take a couple of different approaches to it. The pure healer/medic who avoids combat except to keep the party alive, and the other variant the "heal/tank" who steps up front to fight, and figures it to be "optimal" to only heal themselves (mechanically it isn't, but the character just doesn't think that way). I don't know how many times I've been "dressed down" by other players in games because I didn't play the healer/medic the way they were expecting, so I must have been playing my character wrong. I point them frequently to my extensive character background, and point out that this was how my character was envisioned to play at creation, and that if they didn't like it, then they could volunteer to be the party medic.

It is a limitation to 4E that in addition to classes, races, and backgrounds, there are now MMORPG style defined "roles" for the players to fill. This creates a great shorthand for new players to understand how the traditional D&D classes fill MMORPG roles. However, it limits many people to failing to understand the real "role playing" opportunities within pen and paper gaming which are mostly ignored in the MMORPG community (except on a few select RP servers).

I personally like doing things like building a dex based cloth wearing fighter, or a pacifistic cleric who is just as willing to heal surrendered/defeated opponents as they are the party members. The personality and motivations of the character are much more interesting to me than their attributes and mechanical aptitude within the game system.

I also attempt to create a persona which is generally cooperative with the party (barring their occasionally odd quirks of personality), and seeks to work together to make a success rather than undermine the other characters to make themselves seem more important.

I also carefully consider the vocal characteristics I will attempt when portraying the character. Right now I am in a new campaign where I am playing a Shadar-kai Assassin (who calls himself a bounty hunter). I defined to the DM that I am emulating Alan Rickman's vocal qualities (to the best of my limited abilities) and that my character has a world weary and condesending personality which automatically assumes that everyone else has an inferior idea about what should be done. He tries to lead the party (through mildly derisive comments about the suggestions of others) but always eventually surrenders to the best idea presented even if it isn't his own. I also let the DM know that I would frequently suggest a sub-optimal course of action giving the other players a good chance to suggest a better one. The character wants to be the party leader, but as a player I'm deliberately making him an inferior leader, and giving the real opportunity to lead to the other players.

I posted my character's "background story" in several parts in this forum community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... and I take creating an interesting origin, and character motivation as a serious endeavor when playing in a role playing campaign.
#7
Pashalik_Mons
Sep 17, 2010 15:09:25 I am going to steal, er, I mean, agree with these.
As zmortis suggests, you're going to get a different answer from just about anyone you ask, but here's my stab at what makes a good player.

1. Alert, on task, and keeping things moving. It really bugs me, both as DM and player, when people are constantly asking questions that were just answered five minutes ago. If you don't zone out when other players are acting, then you will be ready to act when it comes to your turn. When it is your turn, don't take five minutes to plan out the absolute optimal move if you can quickly do something pretty effective.

2. Know the rules, but don't start unnecessary arguments. Have a good idea what your character can do. Have at least a rough idea what you can expect from other characters and monsters. Don't stop and argue every time you think someone is applying a +1 modifier incorrectly. This also helps with the keep things moving.

3. Be helpful but not pushy. It's nice to help newer players figure out how to use a power more effectively, or share some advice on how to build a certain character type. It is annoying if you run another player's turn (move here, use this power, no don't spend your action point now, wait until next turn, etc.)

4. Interesting character that doesn't have to be the star. Make sure your character can do something effective in combat and something effective out of combat. You don't have to follow every suggestion of the optimization forum, but don't make yourself a dead weight to the party. On the other hand, realize that there are 3-5 other characters in the group and in some cases your most helpful contribution is going to be to step back and let another character shine. This also applies to role-playing. Give your character a bit of personality without forcing the rest of the group to deal with your melodrama for long periods of time.

5. Hit the role-playing sweet spot. This is the one that is going to vary the most from group to group, but figure out how in-character your group wants to be. Some people prefer to treat D&D as more of a tactical miniatures game. Don't get all huffy when those people won't say every line in character (with appropriate accents). Some groups like to ham it up. Even if you're not a professional actor, give it your best shot. If you absolutely can't reconcile your style with the rest of the group, you may be better off searching out a different group.

6. Bring snacks. Everyone likes to snack when they are gaming. Don't mooch off the same person all the time, and try to share that responsibility. Exactly what snacks are preferred varies from group to group, though anyone who does not like girl scout cookies is probably chaotic evil.

That's all I can think of right now, though it turned out to be longer than I expected when I started typing.

It's mainly the social aspects of gaming that make a good gamer. People who are attentive, respectful, and fun to be around make the best gamers. And everyone likes snacks.

Other than that, what I prefer in a gamer is for them to have similar priorities to my own as to how the game should be played.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hjustin Sep 17, 2010 11:22:36	Greetings, all. Most of my 30 year gaming career has been spent behind the DM screen. I'm about to begin as a player in a new 4E campaign and I'm pretty excited about the opportunity. I've been fortunate in the last few months to play at a few Game Day events and D&D Encounters. I've had a ball and I think playing makes me a better DM. Now I get to build and run one character rather over a long period of time (man, the choices!). I'd like to know what this community considers a really good D&D player. What separates the good from the not-so-good? What do the guys who win the big challenge at Gen Con have that all the teams that went home early don't? I guess I'm looking for specific advice on how to be a good player. Thanks.
#2 zmortis Sep 17, 2010 12:07:59	Asking what makes a good D&D player is like asking why someone has a particular favorite actor, or why they prefer a certain kind of ice cream. Everyone is going to have their own opinions of what makes a good player. I think essentially it can be summed up as follows: The kind of player who makes the game fun for the rest of the people playing. That to me is the quintesential quality, but there are potentially hundreds of paths to reach that goal. I suggest starting with a character/player attitude which is cooperative, social, fun loving, and most importantly doesn't feel the need to hog the spotlight during the game. I hope this helps. p.s. I started playing D&D back in 1978 so we are of about the same generation.
#3 hjustin Sep 17, 2010 12:27:21	Thanks, Z. I suppose my question is rather broad and there isn't likely a definitive answer. I would enjoy learning the opinions of the community though. One of the reasons I even bring this up is because of an experience I had in a recent LFR game at a public venue. Full table, six players. I've noticed that practically no one from this pool of local gamers wants to play a leader. No one wants to be stuck with the healing duties. Seeing a need, I was happy to roll up a cleric for the game and embrace it 100%. What I found as the game progressed was that other players were instructing me what to do on my turn and commenting on the way I build my characters. Why did you choose that? You should have taken this. I'm not a min/maxer but I do look for optimal interactions among abilities. But I'll take a low ability score and use that as a flaw to flavor my character's personality or back story. The guys weren't belligerent by any means but I found myself getting increasingly agitated as the day went on. At one point, I was ready to hand my character sheet to one of the guys and go have lunch. I stuck it out though, managed to enjoy myself, and was very grateful for the opportunity to play. I couldn't help but wonder though, because I only made the leap to 4E last winter, if I was doing it wrong. Was I perceived as a bad player? Being the conscientious sort, I take to heart the feedback and opinions of others, and if there truly is need, I will work my rear off to improve. Maybe in this case it was nothing more than my approach to the game differed from most of the other guys (not saying one style trumps the other--they're simply different). And so as I approach this new play opportunity, I throw this question out to the online community here. I think the feedback may be handy.
#4 nute Sep 17, 2010 12:39:26	Look at the Alignment block on their character sheet.
#5 geoffa Sep 17, 2010 13:02:03	As zmortis suggests, you're going to get a different answer from just about anyone you ask, but here's my stab at what makes a good player. 1. Alert, on task, and keeping things moving. It really bugs me, both as DM and player, when people are constantly asking questions that were just answered five minutes ago. If you don't zone out when other players are acting, then you will be ready to act when it comes to your turn. When it is your turn, don't take five minutes to plan out the absolute optimal move if you can quickly do something pretty effective. 2. Know the rules, but don't start unnecessary arguments. Have a good idea what your character can do. Have at least a rough idea what you can expect from other characters and monsters. Don't stop and argue every time you think someone is applying a +1 modifier incorrectly. This also helps with the keep things moving. 3. Be helpful but not pushy. It's nice to help newer players figure out how to use a power more effectively, or share some advice on how to build a certain character type. It is annoying if you run another player's turn (move here, use this power, no don't spend your action point now, wait until next turn, etc.) 4. Interesting character that doesn't have to be the star. Make sure your character can do something effective in combat and something effective out of combat. You don't have to follow every suggestion of the optimization forum, but don't make yourself a dead weight to the party. On the other hand, realize that there are 3-5 other characters in the group and in some cases your most helpful contribution is going to be to step back and let another character shine. This also applies to role-playing. Give your character a bit of personality without forcing the rest of the group to deal with your melodrama for long periods of time. 5. Hit the role-playing sweet spot. This is the one that is going to vary the most from group to group, but figure out how in-character your group wants to be. Some people prefer to treat D&D as more of a tactical miniatures game. Don't get all huffy when those people won't say every line in character (with appropriate accents). Some groups like to ham it up. Even if you're not a professional actor, give it your best shot. If you absolutely can't reconcile your style with the rest of the group, you may be better off searching out a different group. 6. Bring snacks. Everyone likes to snack when they are gaming. Don't mooch off the same person all the time, and try to share that responsibility. Exactly what snacks are preferred varies from group to group, though anyone who does not like girl scout cookies is probably chaotic evil. That's all I can think of right now, though it turned out to be longer than I expected when I started typing.
#6 zmortis Sep 17, 2010 13:13:27	It seems your experience is that you ran into a group of players who were of the roll play min/max character variety. I personally (in both pen and paper or MMORPGs) dislike playing with groups like that because I prefer interesting characterizations over optimized ones. Not that I want to play a character which is tragically gimped, but I don't mind playing the odd sub-optimal variant which is not the usual approach taken by most. Like yourself I frequently find myself playing the healing role, and generally take a couple of different approaches to it. The pure healer/medic who avoids combat except to keep the party alive, and the other variant the "heal/tank" who steps up front to fight, and figures it to be "optimal" to only heal themselves (mechanically it isn't, but the character just doesn't think that way). I don't know how many times I've been "dressed down" by other players in games because I didn't play the healer/medic the way they were expecting, so I must have been playing my character wrong. I point them frequently to my extensive character background, and point out that this was how my character was envisioned to play at creation, and that if they didn't like it, then they could volunteer to be the party medic. It is a limitation to 4E that in addition to classes, races, and backgrounds, there are now MMORPG style defined "roles" for the players to fill. This creates a great shorthand for new players to understand how the traditional D&D classes fill MMORPG roles. However, it limits many people to failing to understand the real "role playing" opportunities within pen and paper gaming which are mostly ignored in the MMORPG community (except on a few select RP servers). I personally like doing things like building a dex based cloth wearing fighter, or a pacifistic cleric who is just as willing to heal surrendered/defeated opponents as they are the party members. The personality and motivations of the character are much more interesting to me than their attributes and mechanical aptitude within the game system. I also attempt to create a persona which is generally cooperative with the party (barring their occasionally odd quirks of personality), and seeks to work together to make a success rather than undermine the other characters to make themselves seem more important. I also carefully consider the vocal characteristics I will attempt when portraying the character. Right now I am in a new campaign where I am playing a Shadar-kai Assassin (who calls himself a bounty hunter). I defined to the DM that I am emulating Alan Rickman's vocal qualities (to the best of my limited abilities) and that my character has a world weary and condesending personality which automatically assumes that everyone else has an inferior idea about what should be done. He tries to lead the party (through mildly derisive comments about the suggestions of others) but always eventually surrenders to the best idea presented even if it isn't his own. I also let the DM know that I would frequently suggest a sub-optimal course of action giving the other players a good chance to suggest a better one. The character wants to be the party leader, but as a player I'm deliberately making him an inferior leader, and giving the real opportunity to lead to the other players. I posted my character's "background story" in several parts in this forum community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... and I take creating an interesting origin, and character motivation as a serious endeavor when playing in a role playing campaign.
#7 Pashalik_Mons Sep 17, 2010 15:09:25	I am going to steal, er, I mean, agree with these. As zmortis suggests, you're going to get a different answer from just about anyone you ask, but here's my stab at what makes a good player. 1. Alert, on task, and keeping things moving. It really bugs me, both as DM and player, when people are constantly asking questions that were just answered five minutes ago. If you don't zone out when other players are acting, then you will be ready to act when it comes to your turn. When it is your turn, don't take five minutes to plan out the absolute optimal move if you can quickly do something pretty effective. 2. Know the rules, but don't start unnecessary arguments. Have a good idea what your character can do. Have at least a rough idea what you can expect from other characters and monsters. Don't stop and argue every time you think someone is applying a +1 modifier incorrectly. This also helps with the keep things moving. 3. Be helpful but not pushy. It's nice to help newer players figure out how to use a power more effectively, or share some advice on how to build a certain character type. It is annoying if you run another player's turn (move here, use this power, no don't spend your action point now, wait until next turn, etc.) 4. Interesting character that doesn't have to be the star. Make sure your character can do something effective in combat and something effective out of combat. You don't have to follow every suggestion of the optimization forum, but don't make yourself a dead weight to the party. On the other hand, realize that there are 3-5 other characters in the group and in some cases your most helpful contribution is going to be to step back and let another character shine. This also applies to role-playing. Give your character a bit of personality without forcing the rest of the group to deal with your melodrama for long periods of time. 5. Hit the role-playing sweet spot. This is the one that is going to vary the most from group to group, but figure out how in-character your group wants to be. Some people prefer to treat D&D as more of a tactical miniatures game. Don't get all huffy when those people won't say every line in character (with appropriate accents). Some groups like to ham it up. Even if you're not a professional actor, give it your best shot. If you absolutely can't reconcile your style with the rest of the group, you may be better off searching out a different group. 6. Bring snacks. Everyone likes to snack when they are gaming. Don't mooch off the same person all the time, and try to share that responsibility. Exactly what snacks are preferred varies from group to group, though anyone who does not like girl scout cookies is probably chaotic evil. That's all I can think of right now, though it turned out to be longer than I expected when I started typing. It's mainly the social aspects of gaming that make a good gamer. People who are attentive, respectful, and fun to be around make the best gamers. And everyone likes snacks. Other than that, what I prefer in a gamer is for them to have similar priorities to my own as to how the game should be played.