| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1polymorphOct 30, 2009 22:21:18 | Our DM has many qualities, like putting a lot of work into the campaign and always thinking very carefully about what the NPCs say and how they react to us. Yet he also tends to do some very questionable things like favoring his girlfriend's PC in very obvious ways and I sort of get the feeling he is playing a game of "me versus you" against the rest of us. Combat always revolves around killing ridiculously weak NPCs that always go down in one hit. When a challanging foe arrives however, it is pretty much a godlike incarnation of said DM that is just meant to show us how feeble we are and how powerful he is in comparrison. When you read this post, you'll see what I mean. Last night it pretty much went to the extreme: We were in the middle of a hostile city and we have been fighting patrols of enemies for some time while making our way toward a prison where we hoped to save a friendly NPC. We ended up in a situation where a massive number of soldiers were heading our way. The DM told us that we see two roads blocked by fog, which we summoned there earlier, and that massive amounts of enemies will soon approach on both sides. The Rogue decided to use his magic boots to spiderclimb to the top of a tall builidng and make his escape, carrying the gnome Sorceress with him (so the DM told both of them to leave the room). Only the Fighter and me (Psion) remained and I decided to use my "psychoportive shelter" power (3.5 edition) to hide in an interdimensional room and spy on the enemies. To them, the entrance to the shelter was invisible, so i deemed us save. That's when the superuber evil cleric hit the scene and located my shelter with a mere detect magic. (I suppose this is ok by the rules, still it's strange how he just kinda "knew" we were still around .. oh well) When he turned toward us, there was only him and 4 of his lowlevel soldiers on the plaza and since i didn't have enough powers left to save all of us (like shooting us atop high buildings with telekinesis) and we didn't have any items to get us out of there either, we decided to seize our moment of surprise and fight them. Of course the uber cleric just kept laughing at us and obviously his gear made him immune to my powers too. He then used the "insect plague" cleric spell and summoned a locust swarm that not only damaged us without needing to hit, it also made us nauseated each turn, so we could only take single move actions and nothing else. So the situation looked really grim and I asked him to give us an overlook over the situation again and he explained in detail just how awesome his cleric was, how cool he looked etc.. As I asked again, he told us about the other guards that were still there, half of them just doing nothing and watching as the cleric did his thing. When I asked a third time, very specifically about walls and entrances to the plaza, he told us that there was an open road behind us. That would have been good to know earlier... Now that we knew that we could just run away from the fight, I luckily managed to stop the cleric for a short while and we started to run. We could only take a single move action each turn so we went pretty slow and the locust swarm kept following us relentlessly, damaging us each round. Even creative use of the few powers I had left and an heroic attempt of the dieing Fighter to carry me to safety was not enough to save us. When I asked the DM, he even told us that fighting the swarm would be futile, that it moved much faster than us, that there was nothing in sight that could help us survived and that the swarm would continue to hunt us for 90 more rounds. Well, after the thrid round we were already dead... In a very very unbelieveable deus ex machina style event, we woke up again some time later to find out that the rogue and sorceror saved us somehow - even though we were totally and completely dead already and even if they tried, they couldn't have defeated the unstoppable locust either. Then he told us that the NPC we tried to rescue from prison actually escaped on his own and led the rebel prisoners against the evil tyrant army. All the innocent people were saved etc etc and the session was over. Again, the NPCs were much more succesful in doing what we tried to achieve and everything we did was absolutely useless in the end. After that he scolded me for not knowing my spells and that I took to much time to decide what to do during combat. I checked again and found that I knew the spells I used perfectly (and that there was just no info on how high an "energy wall" is in the power description - which was subject of some debate as to how easily someone can jump over it). In fact it turned out he himself didn't know about the spells he used! His "Insect plague" spell reads "The swarms are stationary after being summoned, and won’t pursue creatures that flee." yet they chased us down without remorse. Also, he got the nauseated status all wrong as well as saying that the swarm had a speed of 100ft with perfect maneuvreability. And more importantly, we could have EASILY killed it in a few hits, even though he told us our weapons would be useless. What do you think about the whole thing? |
| #2illravenOct 30, 2009 23:13:20 | Assuming your story is not overly biased, there is only one thing to say - find another DM. This guy is a putz. He violates just about every rule of good DM'ing. |
| #3brassbaboonOct 30, 2009 23:46:54 | So. Context. How long has he been a DM? Is he an experienced DM but just new to 4e? How did he end up being the DM? Is he a friend? Is he approachable? Does he show any desire to improve as a DM? There are usually two knee-jerk reactions on this board to a situation like you described. The first (which you already got) was "he's a putz, find another DM." The second is "Talk to him. Explain that you feel that he should review the powers and creatures he employed. Explain that you have access to the same rule books he does, and that you don't read them the same way he does. Tell him that the rules attempt to provide for balance, and when the rules aren't followed, it unbalances the game. Bring your own books. Tell him that in order to help him manage the game and to ensure that game balance is appropriate that you will help him to look up powers and creatures so that everyone is in agreement with how they work. If he objects to that or takes it as a challenge to his "DM authority" explain to him that his current DM style is not enjoyable to play in, and that your party feels a new DM is in order. (Obviously it would help here to have discussed this with other party members to make sure you aren't the only one who feels this way.) Give him respect. Show him you deserve respect yourself. Voice your opinion. Give him an opportunity to improve and offer to help since that benefits the whole group. If he does not respond positively to that approach, then I'm afraid he is not cut out to be a DM. He might still be an awesome player though. One thing I have learned over time is that not everyone has the skills or temperament to be a DM. It's really a thankless job in some ways, but is extremely rewarding when done well. But if a DM is not willing to listen to his players, and sees his role as the "game god" instead of the "game referee" then he's not likely to be providing the right experience for the group. |
| #4CCSOct 30, 2009 23:56:19 |
I always find it funny when someone reads an entire story & misses a key element. Even when it's mentioned. Such as the fact that the group was playing 3.5.... |
| #5MrCustomerOct 31, 2009 0:03:46 | Sounds like the Dms stuck not in a PC vs DM mode, but in an Uber/Weak mode. That is where everything must be either Uber good or else it is junk. It's a mentality of thinking that everything is either a ferari or else it is a rust bucket. A car that is fuel economical is junk if it doesn't go from 0 to 100 mph in under 6 seconds. Following this rule the PCs are supposed to be Uber, so any common monster they fight, random encounter etc, must by his thinking be Weak (to better show how Uber the PCs are) any chalenging encounter must likewise be Uber, it cannot be simply challenging, or tough because there is no happy medium, just weak/Uber. The DM sounds like he also sets himself up for making NPCs that are to Godlike for the PCs by throwing weak encounters at them. This creates the illusion that the PCs are much stronger then they really are, they only seem Uber because the enounters they faced were weak and pathetic. He therefore has a skewed perspective for judging the PCs real strength. In essense he is trying to create a chalenging encounter for PCs who are wrongly percieved as being godlike for their level. He needs to learn to make progressively chalenging encounters, then he would have a real idea of how strong the players really are. |
| #6brassbaboonOct 31, 2009 0:28:45 |
Not sure how "Key" that is, but I did in fact miss it. |
| #7Pundrake_the_MadOct 31, 2009 0:46:03 | Has your DM mentioned how he feels about psionics? It's just possible he might not be such a twonk if you weren't playing a psion. I'm not saying one way or another whether this is 'fair', it's just that some people really dislike psionics. I'd suggest an experiment: switch characters, and run a non-psion for a while, just to see what happens. PtM |
| #8slobo777aOct 31, 2009 3:52:42 | This reads to me like a DM who is not putting in effort to the "roll game" and just has some story ideas - those are also failing to engage because he hasn't figured a mechanism for the PCs to influence events (as you said - everything is either under-powered or over-powered). It is likely that the DM has no "adventure" as such, but some stats for the NPCs and a sandbox-style description of the plot that somehow he expects the PCs to involve themselves in. It's not clear from the description whether his approach is deliberate, or he simply doesn't care about how the players entertain themselves (he's expecting you to instigate events and find a role for the heroes despite the difficult setup he's presented to you), or if he's reaching for a better game and not able to get there. Possibly a mixture of all three - I doubt he's deliberately trying to spoil the evening! Either way, this is not a DM approach that fixes itself quickly and easily. He's probably not aware of your peeves, and if you approach him about it, I'm not sure what you can practically advise. The best advice would be to run a game in a style you think is more fun. If you can persuade someone else to DM for the group, or take turns running shorter adventures, it might work out better for the group. At the very least you'll get an insight into the parts of the game that different DMs think are important. |
| #9tkxmuseOct 31, 2009 5:47:34 |
Instead of going to the extreme and just abandoning the situation, what about just talking to the DM? Tell him your problems, give him some suggestions and just ask him to improve on his DMing? It usually does the trick. Also, it's a wonder that people are so quick to suggest abandoning the group or becoming the DM when there is still hope in the group. I think that all he needs is a gentle (but firm) nudge. |
| #10slobo777aOct 31, 2009 9:51:01 |
If you can suggest the kind of nudge that would help in this scenario? In my experience, if you have a specific single thing to focus on (a particular style issue or ruling - or in this case the DM apparently favouring their GF), it can be solved nicely in conversation. If gripes are more general, multiple or very basic (as I read into the OP's post), then some variety for everyone in the group is a more pleasant way to break repeating patterns and get all players and DM some more experience.
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| #11KruskNov 01, 2009 12:08:23 | I swear I've played under this DM. I ended up leaving, but occasionally the guy seems genuine enough in his attempts to change that I get sucked back in. (evil cleric fetish, useless PCs, girlfriend favoritism and all) If you really want to keep playing with him, offer him some suggestions at the end of each game. "Hey I noticed that it totally doesn't matter what we, the PCs, do in regards to the world. It moves on totally without us, and if we attempt to change anything it fails so the world keeps going in the same preplanned way. Could we have some influence over stuff? Otherwise it is just sort of lame. Can I get a hint at which region in the US (Or which other country) you are in, I was serious about thinking I have had this DM. |
| #12illravenNov 01, 2009 20:40:33 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- erdana">>Instead of going to the extreme and just abandoning the situation, what about just talking to the DM? erdana">You call it an extreme, I call it a pragmatic decision. I personally don't think THIS particular DM is likely to get better with talk... unless it is the entire group saying "change or else". And given how, if the OP lives in a major metro area, it should be relatively easy to find another group – I suggested a good alternate course of action.
erdana">>Tell him your problems, give him some suggestions and just ask him to improve on his DMing? It usually does the trick. erdana">That depends entirely on the DM and I would never say it is 'usually' a success. In the most benign cases - where a DM is a little clueless or misguided – it might work. In more intractable cases - such as Killer DMs who are using the game to deal with their personal issues – talk almost never works. erdana">It all hinges on the DM's personality... and from what the OP said and didn't say, I suspect the DM falls more into the 'intractable' camp than the 'misguided' one. In my estimation, based on what little we know, I think the DM is unlikely to change. Hence the best solution is to find a different DM. erdana">Moreover, morally, I'm not sure you have a right to ask the DM to change. If you feel you do then, by the same token, doesn't the DM have the right to ask YOU to change your play-style to suit his campaign? "Hey TKX, I think you should just learn to like it when one group of my NPCs has to bail your butt out of trouble from the BBEG. That's my way of playing and you need to improve your performance within that paradigm."
erdana">>Also, it's a wonder that people are so quick to suggest abandoning the group or becoming the DM when there is still hope in the group. I think that all he needs is a gentle (but firm) nudge. erdana">LOL. You see ‘hope’. I see a relatively lost cause where talking merely wastes the OP's time - assuming (as I caveated in my original response) that the OP's "story is not overly biased". And my judgment was not 'quick', it was based on my experience and some assumptions I had to make about the details left out of the story. My caveat was meant for the OP to seriously evaluate whether his account of what happened was fair and accurate erdana">I'm also scratching my head at how "quick to suggest… becoming the DM" is ominous in any way. Do you think that would upset the DM? If so, what is wrong with that – since clearly the DM's behavior is upsetting to at least one of the players? erdana">I was going to go through the original post and explain what I see as the biggest clues and warning signs point by point – but that seems excessive and would be a godawful wall of text that strays into Psych 101. If you "just have to know" my rationale, PM me and I'll lay out the problem as I see it and why I think it can't be solved by talk. Again, assuming the OP was not using dramatic license or misrepresenting the events. erdana"> |
| #13RPJesusNov 02, 2009 2:33:54 |
Yes, but that is an example of doin' it wrong. As I see it, the idea of D&D is for the entire group to work towards the goal of everyone having fun, the DM just happens to be doing a large portion of the work (though proper players should be doing their part by playing their character to the fullest). Incidentally, it might be a good idea to talk to the rest of the party to see how they feel on the subject. If they all agree with you, it's prolly a good idea to bring it up in a friendly fashion. If they all seem indifferent, or enjoy the way he DMs you may be stuck looking for another group. I'm not saying one way or another whether this is 'fair', it's just that some people really dislike psionics. Oh, it's quite unfair. Even among osme of the people I know who allow it, concern was expressed about "psionically dominating the rest of the party." Ignoring the fact that that has more to do with being a **** than one's choice of class (Plus me not being able to learn it as a nomad psion), I simply showed them the entry for "Psionic Dominate" "As Dominate (page whatever of the player's handbook) except as noted here" |
| #14Man_in_the_Funny_HatNov 02, 2009 10:06:56 |
It's not a moral issue, but an ethical one. And yes, the DM does have the right to ask that players change their style to suit his - such as it is. Doesn't mean he's JUSTIFIED in doing so, however. The player here, if his post is fair and accurate, has significant, legitimate grievances against a DM employing very Bad Form. Also, I'd re-read your own quote above and note just what's wrong with the suggested attitude and details of the hypothetical DM: My-way-or-the-highway? NPC's admittedly being used as deus ex machina against overpowered BBEG? This is hardly a good argument for the DM's to be invoking that ultimate requirement. erdana"> LOL. You see ‘hope’. I see a relatively lost cause where talking merely wastes the OP's time - assuming (as I caveated in my original response) that the OP's "story is not overly biased". And my judgment was not 'quick', it was based on my experience and some assumptions I had to make about the details left out of the story. My caveat was meant for the OP to seriously evaluate whether his account of what happened was fair and accurate The kind of behavior described by the OP is hardly rare to be seen in inexperienced DM's. MANY DM's have such phases where they push the envelope and use the game as a personal virtual power trip. Overpowered god-like NPC's. PC's rendered incapable of useful action and given no opportunity to create any. Railroading. Deus Ex Machina. The position of DM LENDS itself to that kind of abuse, but once a DM has it pointed out to him and comprehends why it's bad form and endeavors to do better the problem is quite correctible. erdana"> I'm also scratching my head at how "quick to suggest… becoming the DM" is ominous in any way. Do you think that would upset the DM? If so, what is wrong with that – since clearly the DM's behavior is upsetting to at least one of the players? D&D is commonly played among friends and relatives. Nobody enjoys telling those close to them that they're failures, being jerks, etc. Even comparitive strangers don't commonly care to have to undertake such measures. Since D&D is generally played face to face across a table dealing with people in the real world is one of the unstated necessities. Ironic, since roleplaying games are used to teach people how to do just that. erdana"> I was going to go through the original post and explain what I see as the biggest clues and warning signs point by point – but that seems excessive and would be a godawful wall of text that strays into Psych 101. If you "just have to know" my rationale, PM me and I'll lay out the problem as I see it and why I think it can't be solved by talk. Again, assuming the OP was not using dramatic license or misrepresenting the events. Except that a certain amount of Psych 101 is what we're dealing with here. The DM is almost certainly not TRYING to be a jerk. When he gets told that he IS he'll naturally want to deny it and get upset at the mere accusation. Who would WANT to face stirring up that kind of thing? Yet it has to be done unless you want to just suffer along until the DM figures it out on his own, clued in only by the fact that nobody enjoys his game except him and even that has finally worn thin? |
| #15modern_iconoclastNov 02, 2009 12:55:42 |
Easy, when they talkabout their super magicks powers, teleporting across cities and jumping around buildings with spells...extradimensional immunities and uber-clerics it's 3.5
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| #16brassbaboonNov 02, 2009 23:28:52 |
Still don't see how that's particularly relevant to the discussion, which is about whether a DM is behaving appropriately. This sorta sounds to me like you caught someone making a trivial error and are quite proud of yourself for doing so. Sorta like ragging on someone for a typo in fact. Congratulations. I already said you were right and I got the version wrong. Is it now necessary for me to bow in your direction and beg forgiveness? Will that get you off the trivial "aha! gotcha!" path and back on the main thread? |
| #17RPJesusNov 03, 2009 14:51:05 |
I think he's saying that if it's 3.5, this is quite possibly mor about the fact that the DM was using a cleric than using DM fiat. But yeah regardless, the issue is the DM displaying bad form. |
| #18dragonpimpNov 03, 2009 15:10:50 | I think the main part of the story is the DM broke the RULES. This DM needs to hand monster sheets out so the players will know when an enemy is cheating or not. If the cheating wasn't happening then none of this would have gone wrong. |