Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 aztok Mar 10, 2010 17:50:32	In one of the games we play, my team consists of a psion(myself) a Druid, a Monk, and a Ranger. All four of us are generally out of luck. Our DM is pretty good at coming up with solid adventures, but he is a harsh game master. If we screw up, or make the wrong assumption, then we get hosed with the results. He has told us that it is entirely possible for us to die and not come back, and sometimes he plays for killing us, where we only survive due to sheer luck. Example: We were fighting a necromancer, who sent his flesh golem at us. We were tired, we were low health, our resident cleric NPC had wandered off, and a big mean flesh golem was the last thing we wanted to fight. It was only due to our druid getting a triple-crit and killing the golem in a single charge that we survived. Had it weathered the attack, it would have killed us. Although we all laughed it off, we players knew that had our druid not gotten so lucky we would have been rolling new characters by now. After we kill the necromancer, we head back to our leader, who yells at us because we hadn't done an action the DM had forgotten to tell us at the beginning. Although the DM claims that he told us about "finding the Messenger," Not a single one of us recalls this, which seems pretty unlikely that the three of us (minus ranger) would be able to miss such an important piece of information. Example #2: After this necromancer adventure, we were sent off as emissaries to the water elves (silly) by our paladin Deux Ex Machina leader. He told us that we would be told WHY we were off on a long boat ride by the captain. We reached the captain, and the captain said "Arrh, I will tell ye at the end of the journey.: So we wait. We reach the solid cliff we have to climb to reach the elven stronghold, and ask why we are here, again. The captain says, "No time! Just climb the Cliff!" And unable to argue, we climb the cliff (rediculously hard). When we reach the top, we find that the elves are on teh brink of hostility, and we are intruding on their land. The elven watch leader asks at bowpoint why we are there, and we cannot honestly tell him. At this point our dm pipes up and says, I guote, "I think it is hilarous that you guys are here, and you don't even know why. You guys are gonna have to really work hard not to die here" End quote. We argue that NO ONE TOLD US WHY WE WERE THERE but he would not listen to reason, so it was only due to an extremely lucky roll on my part that I was able to convince the water elves to let us in. Again, we nearly lost all our characters, due to an oversight by the DM, who neglected to actually reveal the reason we came in the first place. Normally we the players just laugh it off, but eventually we won't be so lucky, and will end up seriously dead, and our DM is extremely strict about us being unable to play classes that we have played before (so no druid, monk, rogue, ranger, cleric, paladin, or binder, which limits our abilities pretty bad) and I am starting to get tired of this constant bad luck. As a player I don't mind being the underdogs, nor do I mind that we face roughly 10 to 12 encounters per game (plus traps), because that makes it fun. But, if the DM doesn't help us out a little, then eventually a couple bad rolls will end our adventure permanently. How should I talk to our DM about this, to let him know that we would love it to get a little more convenience in our gameplay?
#2 umruk Mar 10, 2010 19:28:04	Talk to all the other players first, and make sure you enter the discussion as a group, so there is no ambiguity about the fact that this affects everyone. Then as a group - all of you together - you can approach your DM and express your concerns. That might seem like unnecessary ganging-up on someone, but if you don't do things together you don't send a clear and strong message. Tell him that this much risk, constantly, isn't fun for all of you. If he really told the players something, they he should have no problem repeating it. Your characters know it well, after all. If you want to simulate the possibility of a character actually forgetting, characters can be subject to a DC5 Wisdom roll for recent information or a DC10 Wisdom roll for older information, to see if they've been attentive, perceptive, and clear-minded about information they learned. A character who fails their roll was obviously too busy thinking over new spell formulae in their head or too smashed on a whole lot of alcohol to remember, but the low DC for recent information represents the fact that most people will be paying attention and remember something important (and a lot of mundane stuff too) said to them recently enough. If your DM won't accept fairly reasonable terms like this, you are owed an explanation why. Be fair and reasonable and hear him through. If he has some good reasons then you can all find a middle ground. If he can't give you a reason, it seems like he's starting to turn into a butcher or puppet master. Two frequent flavours of killer DM. That might sound kind of cool to him, but this is a social game that everyone builds together, not a tool for acting out a god complex.
#3 CCS Mar 10, 2010 20:17:56	Ok, you're problem is not that you're out of luck.  Or that you face actual challenges that could well kill your PCs if the dice go bad.  It's not even that you have a possible killer DM & class restrictions concerning character creation. The problem is one of information flow.  Or lack of it. If you're PCs aren't getting essential info (be it true or false), have them ask questions.  Or more questions.  If they still don't get info?  Play accordingly.  Do NOT accept missions from the deux ex NPC.  Refuse to climb the next cliff.  Etc etc etc. Out of game?  Talk to the DM about the info problem.
#4 salla Mar 10, 2010 20:58:17	On the bright side, your DM forgot that 3rd edition golems are immune to crits when the druid rammed it.
#5 tubaman Mar 10, 2010 21:19:21	in a way, you're being railroaded....not 100% "do what i want you to do or DIE," but the DM is basically dictating the flow, direction, plot, and choices in the game. remind your DM that you guys are there to have fun.  You want to be involved in the story development, not be led around by the nose, or mr. god-paladin.  you can either talk to your DM (as a group, as suggested above) and tell the DM he needs to invilve the party more in the story, not just lead you from one dice rolling situation to the next.  Alternatively, you can act this out in game - mr. god-paladin sends you on a quest, you say "OK!" (i'm assuming the paladin will have you branded traitors or attack you or whatever if you refuse).  Then turn around and walk out of town a different way without telling anyone in town why. If your DM still "forces" you into his story, via the guards at the gates stopping you, or the paladin waiting, or some other deus ex machina, then you need to tell the DM in no uncertain terms that you're not here to watch the DM play solo-D&D while you "help out" by rolling dice - you guys need some choice AND the DM needs to roll with it.....there shouldn't be ONE right choice, and if there are many choices, they shouldn't all lead to the same place......there often doesn't HAVE to be wrong choices either...something your DM doesn't seem to get.....but less desirable consequences, ie. the party is captured, or the town is burned down, or the water elves end up unallied with the paladin's forces, or whatever. If luck is the sole factor of survivability, you could switch to just playing dice against each other.  Failure shouldn't mean "BAM - DEAD!"  It should mean less desirable end.....multiple less desirable ends along the same story path will likely lead to death or a hard fight where failure is death.
#6 chanter_hound Mar 10, 2010 22:11:41	Get Hot dice. Then you will never run out of luck. kekeke. But yeah.. your DM sounds like he is being a Dictator. Its stories like this that make me glad that in my games, except for the 4e games on thursday, My DM hasn't seemed to be a jerkoff thus far and rail road us. The 4e games the DM has no choice but to railroad because its LFR and we only have so much time. (Less time than normal as he is the main DM for the 4-5 games that get played that day, so he has to delgate other DMs to run those tables.)
#7 Phrennzy Mar 10, 2010 23:55:51	If you're PCs aren't getting essential info (be it true or false), have them ask questions.  Or more questions.  If they still don't get info?  Play accordingly.  Do NOT accept missions from the deux ex NPC.  Refuse to climb the next cliff.  Etc etc etc. Out of game?  Talk to the DM about the info problem. My thoughts exactly.  This is where role playing kicks in.  Would you do all these things - the mission, the boat ride, the cliff - with no information?  No reason why?  It's stupid to act blindly.  Even in a strict military heirarchy they understand that SOME information is necessary to perform correctly.  Your DM laughing at you further shows that you guys just follow where he leads without asking questions - which is just unrealistic and obviously not fun.  Your PC should ask questions, and if the answer given is "I dunno, just do it." then find someone else to ask, until you get an answer you like.  Don't just follow blindly.
#8 swarleythebeneficent Mar 10, 2010 23:58:23	I'm all about challenge: I think that the PCs should be tested and that they should have to use their abilities, and use them wisely. That said, constantly relying solely on luck means either that your DM is being too harsh, or that your players aren't fighting smart. However, more than challenge, I'm also about choice: D&D is worth playing because of the staggering number of options that are not available in any computer or board game. I have race restrictions based on my game world, and some classes are more rare than others (changing how people regard the PC), but people should be allowed to make and to play what they want. Also: I hate babysitter NPCs. Hate. Them. I have enough sway over what happens as DM through the events that transpire and the world's reactions to my players' actions. Forcing a TPK because your party didn't pick up on one subtle hint (that may or may not have been dropped) sounds like shoddy DMing.
#9 navar100 Mar 11, 2010 0:06:29	Your problem is your DM thinks he's Il Duce.  He is playing against you, not with you.  You are only there for his amusement at your own expense.  The solution to your problem is to get a new DM.
#10 aztok Mar 11, 2010 0:25:09	theere are a lot of good suggestions here, but the main problem is that important things are not mentioned until it is too late (often at my expense) Example: We are fighting zombie pirates (fun) and there are zombie sharks (awesome) in the water surrounding the dock. There is a boat with allied pirates above us, also fighting the zombies. I decide that it would be a good idea to use a wall of lightening in the water, which would electrocute the sharks, lessening the problem (ok, snap decision, but we were using timed turns for that encounter). However, when I do so I find out later that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat, which means I killed a good number of pirates along with the sharks (not fun or awesome). This means that the pirates now hate me forever, but they leave without killing me. It would have been nice to know that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat so I didn't have to end up living with the consequences of accidentally killing innocents, because this is something that probably should have been told to us as soon as we arrived. I admit I made a snap decision, but it still seems unfair that there were innocents that were screwing around while we fought, that we didn't know existed, and were entirely unnoticeable (You'd think we would be able to see/hear/sense the pirates somehow). How should I tell the DM that I thought that was unfair, that I got screwed by something I was perfectly unable knowing? True, I killed the zombie sharks, but The second I learned about the pirates, it lost all fun for me.
#11 tubaman Mar 11, 2010 10:32:09	theere are a lot of good suggestions here, but the main problem is that important things are not mentioned until it is too late (often at my expense) Example: We are fighting zombie pirates (fun) and there are zombie sharks (awesome) in the water surrounding the dock. There is a boat with allied pirates above us, also fighting the zombies. I decide that it would be a good idea to use a wall of lightening in the water, which would electrocute the sharks, lessening the problem (ok, snap decision, but we were using timed turns for that encounter). However, when I do so I find out later that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat, which means I killed a good number of pirates along with the sharks (not fun or awesome). This means that the pirates now hate me forever, but they leave without killing me. It would have been nice to know that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat so I didn't have to end up living with the consequences of accidentally killing innocents, because this is something that probably should have been told to us as soon as we arrived. I admit I made a snap decision, but it still seems unfair that there were innocents that were screwing around while we fought, that we didn't know existed, and were entirely unnoticeable (You'd think we would be able to see/hear/sense the pirates somehow). How should I tell the DM that I thought that was unfair, that I got screwed by something I was perfectly unable knowing? True, I killed the zombie sharks, but The second I learned about the pirates, it lost all fun for me. honestly, unless your DM mentioned that there was a hole in the boat and you, as players or as characters forgot, then your DM is being a jerk and TRYING to screw you over.....he might as well have said: "it suddenly starts raining as you cans the spell and you end up zapping yourself and your entire party as well....also, since the sharks are in a huge body of water, it diffuses the electricity and they only take 1/4 damage" thats BASICALLY what your DM did to you....random screwing with the party for no reason.  talk to your DM, get him to change his DM-style.  At the moment, he's punishing you for being clever and for trying to roleplay, and he sounds like he's ACTIVELY trying to ruin your fun, so he can get his kicks. if anything, he should have allowed the spell to work, and then, if the encounter was going to be ruined by being trounced when it was supposed to be climactic, then he could have had more zombie sharks/pirates show up....or make them "rise again" with 1/4 hitpoints or something....he should still let you have your "that was awesome" moment.
#12 swarleythebeneficent Mar 11, 2010 12:57:58	theere are a lot of good suggestions here, but the main problem is that important things are not mentioned until it is too late (often at my expense) Example: We are fighting zombie pirates (fun) and there are zombie sharks (awesome) in the water surrounding the dock. There is a boat with allied pirates above us, also fighting the zombies. I decide that it would be a good idea to use a wall of lightening in the water, which would electrocute the sharks, lessening the problem (ok, snap decision, but we were using timed turns for that encounter). However, when I do so I find out later that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat, which means I killed a good number of pirates along with the sharks (not fun or awesome). This means that the pirates now hate me forever, but they leave without killing me. It would have been nice to know that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat so I didn't have to end up living with the consequences of accidentally killing innocents, because this is something that probably should have been told to us as soon as we arrived. I admit I made a snap decision, but it still seems unfair that there were innocents that were screwing around while we fought, that we didn't know existed, and were entirely unnoticeable (You'd think we would be able to see/hear/sense the pirates somehow). How should I tell the DM that I thought that was unfair, that I got screwed by something I was perfectly unable knowing? True, I killed the zombie sharks, but The second I learned about the pirates, it lost all fun for me. Your DM's kind of a... well, he's a word that I don't imagine I can use on this forum. What he's doing is ACTIVELY squelching player creativity and participation. A good DM should always try to encourage using powers, skills etc creatively. It adds a lot more to the game to, say, do what you did to those sharks rather than just "I step forward and attack. I hit and do 10 damage. My turn is over." Honestly, I would either get someone else to DM (let him see how annoying it is to have NO power as a PC), or bounce from the group. D&D is supposed to be fun: if your DM isn't letting you have fun, then there's no point in playing.
#13 brassbaboon Mar 11, 2010 15:55:26	theere are a lot of good suggestions here, but the main problem is that important things are not mentioned until it is too late (often at my expense) Example: We are fighting zombie pirates (fun) and there are zombie sharks (awesome) in the water surrounding the dock. There is a boat with allied pirates above us, also fighting the zombies. I decide that it would be a good idea to use a wall of lightening in the water, which would electrocute the sharks, lessening the problem (ok, snap decision, but we were using timed turns for that encounter). However, when I do so I find out later that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat, which means I killed a good number of pirates along with the sharks (not fun or awesome). This means that the pirates now hate me forever, but they leave without killing me. It would have been nice to know that there was a hole in the bottom of the boat so I didn't have to end up living with the consequences of accidentally killing innocents, because this is something that probably should have been told to us as soon as we arrived. I admit I made a snap decision, but it still seems unfair that there were innocents that were screwing around while we fought, that we didn't know existed, and were entirely unnoticeable (You'd think we would be able to see/hear/sense the pirates somehow). How should I tell the DM that I thought that was unfair, that I got screwed by something I was perfectly unable knowing? True, I killed the zombie sharks, but The second I learned about the pirates, it lost all fun for me. Three things. 1. There was no hole in the boat until the DM decided that was a way to twist your action into something he could use against you. 2. A hole in the boat would not have led to anyone in the boat being electrocuted unless they were actually in the water. But even then, that would only be true if they were in range. See #3. 3. Spells have range limits. I'm not familiar with the spell "Wall of Lightning" but virtually all wall spells effects are limited to the squares of the wall and the squares directly adjacent. Your problem is simple. Your DM is an ass.
#14 swarleythebeneficent Mar 11, 2010 17:39:56	Your problem is simple. Your DM is an ass. Yeah, that's what I was going for! So you hit a few of the people whom you saved from certain death for a few HP worth of damage... and they swore to kill you. They sound like a bunch of ingrates... you should have killed the pirates!
#15 aztok Mar 11, 2010 18:29:36	Minor edit, The "wall of lightening" spell was the power Energy Wall, from Extended Psionics Handbook, and you get to choose the energy type. I cast it in the water because although it normally doesn't go beyond its range, if I cast it in the water, it would electrocute a large portion of the area. I appreciate the posts, but how should I tell my DM that that situation pretty much diffused the battle's supply of awesome for me? I already know his response: "If you make a decision, its gonna have consequences. If you make a bad decision, its gonna have bad consequences. You should have checked to see if there was a hole in the boat." He is most likely going to get defensive, but he isn't the kind of guy to get even, which I am thankful for. I need a way to talk to him and let him know that I 1. Don't like to be led by the nose from adventure to adventure; 2. That it is extremely easy to remove something that will screw up the players if they don't know about it until too late; 3. That the DM should be our collective character memory (He uses a laptop for important stuff) considering we only meet once a week or less, thats a long time to forget stuff, even important stuff like why we are dealing with jerky water elves or ungrateful pirates. Don't get me wrong, he is a nice guy and comes up with really detailed adventures, but he does all of the things above. I just don't want a kadjillion tons of hate to acumulate against him, just suggestions on how to make him better than he already is.
#16 inarai Mar 11, 2010 19:43:20	Minor edit, The "wall of lightening" spell was the power Energy Wall, from Extended Psionics Handbook, and you get to choose the energy type. I cast it in the water because although it normally doesn't go beyond its range, if I cast it in the water, it would electrocute a large portion of the area. I appreciate the posts, but how should I tell my DM that that situation pretty much diffused the battle's supply of awesome for me? I already know his response: "If you make a decision, its gonna have consequences. If you make a bad decision, its gonna have bad consequences. You should have checked to see if there was a hole in the boat." He is most likely going to get defensive, but he isn't the kind of guy to get even, which I am thankful for. I need a way to talk to him and let him know that I 1. Don't like to be led by the nose from adventure to adventure; 2. That it is extremely easy to remove something that will screw up the players if they don't know about it until too late; 3. That the DM should be our collective character memory (He uses a laptop for important stuff) considering we only meet once a week or less, thats a long time to forget stuff, even important stuff like why we are dealing with jerky water elves or ungrateful pirates. Don't get me wrong, he is a nice guy and comes up with really detailed adventures, but he does all of the things above. I just don't want a kadjillion tons of hate to acumulate against him, just suggestions on how to make him better than he already is. 1: Explain to him that it is not reasonable to expect players to ask about these things.  He should be explaining it in the outset of combat, or at LEAST allow you to make a perception/spot/whatever check to take in the situation when things start up.  His descriptions are your eyes in the world, and you don't ask if you see something in the real world - you just see it.  It's reasonable to expect the DM's explanation to cover everything you'd reasonably see.  And unreasonable to punish players for not knowing what he didn't say and didn't provide any clue to check. 2: He should be giving you any and all information your character would reasonably have that you do not.  Like, say, something that was said 5 minutes ago in game time but a week ago in real world time. 3: The greatest part about DnD is choice - the consequence is that sometimes a DM has to start making stuff up on the spot.  He should never, ever expect you to follow whatever course he's laid out - if there's a 10 Commandments of DMing somewhere, there's no way "Thou shalt not railroad" is omitted.  Any DM has to be prepared for players to deviate from his plan - and if they do, ideally, he's got something prepared to go with from there. Basically, you need to talk to him - nicely.  Rather than telling him it was bad and he should feel bad, tell him it was bad and it would be more fun if X.  Constructive criticism will land better than anything else would.
#17 brassbaboon Mar 11, 2010 20:26:37	Minor edit, The "wall of lightening" spell was the power Energy Wall, from Extended Psionics Handbook, and you get to choose the energy type. I cast it in the water because although it normally doesn't go beyond its range, if I cast it in the water, it would electrocute a large portion of the area. I appreciate the posts, but how should I tell my DM that that situation pretty much diffused the battle's supply of awesome for me? I already know his response: "If you make a decision, its gonna have consequences. If you make a bad decision, its gonna have bad consequences. You should have checked to see if there was a hole in the boat." He is most likely going to get defensive, but he isn't the kind of guy to get even, which I am thankful for. I need a way to talk to him and let him know that I 1. Don't like to be led by the nose from adventure to adventure; 2. That it is extremely easy to remove something that will screw up the players if they don't know about it until too late; 3. That the DM should be our collective character memory (He uses a laptop for important stuff) considering we only meet once a week or less, thats a long time to forget stuff, even important stuff like why we are dealing with jerky water elves or ungrateful pirates. Don't get me wrong, he is a nice guy and comes up with really detailed adventures, but he does all of the things above. I just don't want a kadjillion tons of hate to acumulate against him, just suggestions on how to make him better than he already is. There is no reason whatsoever to expect a lightning spell to propagate beyond its range just because it is in the water. It's magic not the real world. Dragons can use their breath weapon underwater. Magical electrical damage is not the same thing as running an extension cord into the water. And even if it was, your attempt to fry a bunch of zombie sharks would almost certainly have failed due to the dispersion of the electric charge in the water. The energy is not infinite, there is only as much energy as the electric source provides. If you truly consider this guy a friend, then you owe it to yourself to explain to him that he's being an ass. If you explain in plain terms without accusing him of the obvious, then if he can't understand or accept it, you are pretty much stuck. The behavior you are describing is pretty much synonymous with "bad DM." He needs to understand that his job is to make YOUR play as enjoyable as possible. Every example you posted was of him working hard to come up with ways to make your play less enjoyable. This is a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the DM in the game. Good luck talking to him, hopefully he'll realize his mistakes and work to correct them.
#18 tubaman Mar 12, 2010 10:46:44	i really don't have any idea what to tell anymore. you think he's a great DM, and everyone else who's read and responded here has said "OMG he did THAT?!? what a jerk!" "you should have asked if there was a hole in the boat" NO.  He should have told you there was a hole in the boat when you said "i want to use this power" if the hole was in sight.  Otherwise he might as well have jumped you with 4 ships more of zombie pirates, after all "you should have asked if there were 4 more ships pulling up alongside the one you were fighting on" - see how ridiculous that is? even if you couldn't see it, punishing the characters for something they had no way of knowing is stupid.  It would be like a schoolteacher setting a test to take place when he/she knew there would be a fire drill, and then telling the students that they get a zero on the test cuz no one finished it (due to the fire drill).  Its dumb setup....the DM might say that the pirates didn't put the hole in the boat, they didn't know you were going to electrocute the water....no, maybe not, but the DM DID decide to have a hole in the boat, that the players had no reasonable way to know about. finally, one last thought....do these pirates ever sail in bad weather?  do they get mad at the weather gods when they die cuz they're stupid enough to get electrocuted when lightning strikes the water near their boat? unless there is a whole lot of information about this situation (and the cliff situation, and the golem situation) that makes this DM "a great guy who does a great job DMing," then i can't help you anymore, because you think your DM is great, with a little problem, and i think that those things make your DM really rotten at his job of making the game fun for everyone and allowing the PCs the creative license to affect the game. Either way, best of luck to you.