He believes that him being the defender everyone should follow him (Even though we have a paladin / swordmage plus a cleric). Also he doesn't see what hes doing wrong he claims that he can hold them off perfectly fine while beating them down which he can hold them off at (lvl 8) 28 AC normally 32 during total defense / second wind and his saves are really good. However, even with that he isn't a one man wrecking ball his DPR is low generally using the 1W to adjacent when they start and total defensing.
This is only going to get worse when his girlfriend starts playing a healer becuase he will be able to live even longer since she will always follow him.
So as a player is there anything I can do to stop this? He claims hes playing his character and I complained all last night about what he did so I think he got the point that I think he was being an idiot but I don't think he agrees with me.
Honestly, if the DM is okay with it and can handle a split party, I'd say just let it run its course.
Most dungeons/DMs are vicious enough to kill a character that goes adventuring by himself.
My last DM (before I picked up the hat), killed off our min-maxed fighter because he went exploring by himself. Him, all alone in a room searching for treasure. Fails a Spot check. Four Sneak-Thieves charge him. All have flanking, two crit. The rest of the party found his body about a week later and killed the Sneak-Thieves without problems.
I can't speak for how the DM feels about this.
Really as a DM such a character would die in my dungeons just as a matter of course.
I assume he isn't really going off on his own like down a tunnel a couple of miles, but just saying, "No, I wanna go open this door!"
Tell the DM your concerns privately if he couldn't agree to work as a team, and let him kick the player out of that is what has to happen.
If he still goes off, let him eventually get himself killed. You could easily close some doors behind yourself in the opposite direction to cover your own butts -- "in character" and all that. Also would take him extra actions to start opening doors. But things like this should really be discussed outside of the game.
Party leader (not him) circles the wagons, and declares, okay, this is good, we got enough, let's go back to town."
Takes charge, leaves the dungeon, with the rest of the group. fighter can stay and play with the goblins if he likes.
Get back to town. Treasure split.
Big circle of guys
"You sir, are an ass, for dragging hostile things to us, making extra work, that puts us all in danger. We've told you before...And yet you keep putting us at risk. Consider yourself not a part of our circle of equals, any more. Good luck in future."
Then you part ways.
In the dungeon, as you have been doing, you are continuing to adventure with him. this is allowing him to keep this crap going.
End the adventure, and once he's out (with a NEW PC, and a new attitude), go back to the dungeon and finish it up. He might quit the game. Good for him, if he wants to whine after taking his medicine. But don't allow him to reenter the group with that PC.
Your DM should have shut this down long ago. I'd advise you DM you are going to do it, ahead of time, see what he / she thinks.
Additionally, OOC, tell the player, "If you keep taking these actions, this guy is gonna get booted from the party, forever, no lie, knock the **** off."
He might pull his sword and try to waste the party. Good. It shows his true colors, as a team member. Then it's easy to boot him. Maybe the DM will retcon it. Maybe he'll let it stand.
Maybe it's a lesson to your party, "carefully choose who you go to war with, as comrades."
That's how I'd handle it, 100%
Personally, I'd do it next session. As a DM, I'd have already advised the player, "if they want to boot you from the party for keeping this up, you'll need a new PC."
I've dealt with several players like this over the years, and the ones I love the most are the ones that try to justify their actions as "well, my character does this because.... blah blah blah..." Ok, fair enough... they can transpose their selfishness onto their character. The other characters, however, aren't bound by some magical contract to adventure with him. Their characters' lives are being endangered by having a loose cannon in the party, and are completely justified in ditching him, killing him, etc (depending on alignment and morals of the characters). An adventuring group is basically a group of co-workers... if he's not doing his job, fire him. :D
Everytime he has ran off its been in a dungeon where the 2 encounters were fairly close together in a caveish environment so no doors. I don't really want to kick him out becuase he's a really good friend IRL. I thought beating some sense into him but I cant hit him lol (+12 atk bonus vs 32 AC in his total defense).
Find his lowest NAD and have enemies able to target that defense concentrate that on him. Not to kill him, but getting him constantly to death's brink until that he becomes less reckless.
don't forget that he isn't wearing armor when sleeping.
If I was the DM, your friend would end up in a pit trap, seeing as he's probably not trained in Perception. And once he's down there, he'd be getting blasted with Will and Reflex attacks from above. I wouldn't go easy on him either... they'd blast him until they killed him if they can. I would be fair about it though, I wouldn't use excessive enemies. I would use a standard encounter for your 8-man party.
Ultimately, your friend will choose wether he values playing in that group enough to act like they want him to.
Here is are examples of things that can happen.
1) he walks into an ambush, and can't go back the way he came.
2) while he as going one way, you where going another, and you came to a fork in the road, how exactly will he know where you went?
3) your two groups simply go far enuff from each other that he does not have time to reach you.
Next time he decides to go off on his own through one door while the rest of the party wants to take another route, close the door & LOCK IT behind him once he leaves. When you hear the sound of a running battle getting closer, just ignore the pounding on the door until all the grunts, clangs, crashes, & screams finally cease. Only then should you open the door. If he survives, good for him, & if not, your problem has just solved itself - but either way, I bet this player will wise up pretty fast afterwards.
Last time I suggest no one goes to help him but he ran to us so that didn't work out. So if he chooses to go a route through a large object that can block his path you better bet im putting it in between myself and the baddies.
If this doesn't work then simply point him towards the door.
I dunno why can't he just be allowed to pick where you go?
2) Kick him the nuts.
3) ????
4) Profit!
OR
"It's IC" is a bad excuse. Get cursed with having to take a dump on him as he sleeps.
OR
Have a polite conversation with the entire party before a game.
_/_/_/_/_/
I prefer the first one. :P
If you want to be really heavyhanded, you could start dropping fluffbits on them that has a moral to the story; stick with your friends, or bad things happen to you.
A combination of the two above should garner you the reaction you seek, without having to even say anything out of character.
1) Wherever your fighter goes, he erases every monster and treasure from that part of the dungeon. No XP, no treasure.
2) Wherever the other players go, put in the treasure removed from the other parts. Good XP, great treasure.
Try doing it sparingly, you can make him look pretty foolish and have him second guess himself.
Another option the PCs can take. Any time the fighter goes off on his own and brings a fight back to the party, he forfeits all loot from that encounter.
But really, the IC thing to do is replace him.
leave him to die
give player new character sheet
But honestly your best solution is like everyone else says, talk with the DM and see how they feel because they are just as likely upset with the situation as you are. Hopefully things will work themselves out where the rest of the group will not have to resort to a good lynching. As fun as they may be no one wins in the end when you have to share a ride home with the guy.
Or you could just leave him to the worgs. Serves 'im right for being so reckless. But be sure to take his stuff first. If it gets eaten, you lose out on some treasure!
Dominate Person. Best bet.
There's always the diplomatic route. But that never works. Scientific study* and everything.
*I think the original study might have been on dolphin migration patterns, but context is miraculous.
Another option is for the other Players to simply leave the table en mass when this Fighter goes solo. That should send a clear message.
Or you could talk to him about the situation. If he refuses to acquiesce, then give him the ultimatum - roll up a more cooperative character or the player can leave.
I would never tolerate such behavior from my players, and my players sure as heck wouldn't either.
Why is the fighter going off on his own? Is he ignored during the rest of the game? Is fighting things the only thing he can do? is it the only thing he wants to do? If so, you might be able to save yourself the trouble of kicking him out, if he realized that the group goal/outlook towards game is not the same as his (which is apparently, "bringing it).
Also, while you all have 7 members in your group, we have a group of four and 3/4 members of the group were bloodied at the end with one not that far behind and I'd say at least half of us had used our dailies and all of us had used our encounters after two encounters without a rest. While this is troublesome, unless your DM is out for blood, I wouldn't be too concerned. You can get roughed up in 4th edition. That's what healing surges are for.
More seriously though, maybe they are oddly after some 'alone' time? - some chance to shine without feeling just like another footsoldier in an army. That is a lot of players, and you might be better forming two groups of four heroes, instead of one group of eight. Just a thought...
Thank you all for your suggestions. I agree that what the fighter is doing is wrong.
The excuse that he is only "playing his character" is laughable. Coming from a guy who min-maxes his lvl 7 character to have 32 AC, but he suddenly wants to RP this aspect of his character.
In my defense as the DM, its not like he has been doing this for months... It happen once a couple of weeks ago, and again this past week (as far as i can remember, at least... my players may correct me). I thought it was a bad move the first time, but the second time sorta made me upset. I did try to throw enemies that target his Will (there was a foulspawn grue the was destroying him with 'Whispers of Madness' before he began running away.)
One week, his questionable leadership caused 2 characters to die... they were on the ground making death saving throws, and instead of having anyone stabilize them the fighter kept convincing everyone to keep dealing damage. I understand this logic when the fight is almost over, but there was still 3 monsters left and 1 of them had taken no damage so far. The 2 characters eventually failed their saves and died.
I think the reason he does this it not an attempt to horde xp and gold to himself, but i think he just feels everyone should obey him. He constantly barks orders at everyone during a battle. He is used to the party just following along with him, but recently not everyone has been doing this (much to my content). So when people disagree and want to go another way, he would rather be stubborn and go his way in defiance.
Things get pretty hectic trying to prepare for a 7-8 player D&D game... and i believe I am insane for trying it every week (but I do have alot of fun). Certain things fall through the cracks sometimes, but I try to focus on the central goal: We are all here to have fun.
So if people are not having fun, things must change. I will talk with the player before the game next week. This is a team game and he needs to shape up and be a team player. If he tries this kind of thing again, his character will feel it, trust me.
Things get pretty hectic trying to prepare for a 7-8 player D&D game... and i believe I am insane for trying it every week (but I do have alot of fun). Certain things fall through the cracks sometimes, but I try to focus on the central goal: We are all here to have fun.
So if people are not having fun, things must change. I will talk with the player before the game next week. This is a team game and he needs to shape up and be a team player. If he tries this kind of thing again, his character will feel it, trust me.
I know what its like being a new DM and having so many players. When I first started I had 6 players, so I feel for ya. I too had a player who thought himself the 'Hero Captain' of the group. Your player may be different but I found spending some time at the beginning of a session, as a group, discussing the matter really changed his attitude. He really didn't realize his attitude and in game choices really affected everyone so negatively. The group discussion really helped, I definitely suggest it.
One thing stood out to me...
One week, his questionable leadership caused 2 characters to die... they were on the ground making death saving throws, and instead of having anyone stabilize them the fighter kept convincing everyone to keep dealing damage. I understand this logic when the fight is almost over, but there was still 3 monsters left and 1 of them had taken no damage so far. The 2 characters eventually failed their saves and died.
I think the reason he does this it not an attempt to horde xp and gold to himself, but i think he just feels everyone should obey him. He constantly barks orders at everyone during a battle. He is used to the party just following along with him, but recently not everyone has been doing this (much to my content). So when people disagree and want to go another way, he would rather be stubborn and go his way in defiance.
Leadership? Does the player or character have any reason to believe he is the party leader? That may be the root of the problem. If his character "outranks" the others in any way then that could convince the PC that the others should obey him.
One approach you could take is to simply refuse to take time away from the other players when he does this. When he does this, don't you have to run two separate games? - One for him and one for everyone else. You could simply refuse to go along with that in a dungeon.
Needless to say, the group had a LOOOONG talk with that player. Eventually he came around but it wasn't easy.
In the fantasy worlds I know, Fighters/Warriors/tanks do tend to hold this leadership role (although in 4e, i would say warlords are the natural leaders).
But in a D&D party, the leader is whoever the party decides is the leader, or no one if they decide so.
There is nothing about my fighter that (in game or out of game) qualifies him to be the leader or that allows him to "outrank" the others. Only that he is the one who makes the decisions... and if nobody objected, they all went with it.
It is obvious he enjoys being the leader of the group, and likes to control the situation... which is perfectly OK. Except that he doesn't seem to consider the opinions of the others in the group, which is very NOT OK.
The problem is, i think, that recently they haven't all just been going along with him. And even when EVERYONE but him decides to go a different way, he will stick to his guns and expects everyone to follow him.
As far as I can tell his reasoning is "I'm the tank, I'm invincible, so everyone should follow me, no matter what."
When he runs into another room and aggros more baddies, then draws them to the rest of the group, its almost like he is trying to punish everyone else for not going his way in the first place.
This last session, I thought the monsters i put against him were going to crush him....and they started to, but i didn't expect he would be able to get back to the party in time. Next time I will make sure he doesn't have the option to do so.
Say he runs off into another encounter, and the cute princess swoons over the OTHER guy who rescues her. Or the spirit of the last guardian rewards the REST of the party, who is in the room, for freeing his soul. Or the prisoners spread tales of their rescue by the band of bold adventurers, and leave him, who was out of the room, out of the legend.
Also, perhaps you could have some encounters which are not lethal, or highly punishing, but simply difficult to "deal with" by their lonesome.
If the fighter runs off and attracts the enemies to his party's location, that's one thing, but if he wanders off and falls in a pit trap, or a well, or a cage, and just gets to sit around and wait for the rest of the gang, maybe he'll think differently about it. Even better might be traps that can easily be bypassed by working in unison, but are difficult to get by on your lonesome. Think of a counterbalanced floor, with a catch on the near end preventing it from dropping. Once the Lone Ranger crosses the midpoint, the floor tips down and deposits him in a pit. If only there had been someone else in the room to counterbalance the floor.....
Honestly, he sounds like a classic "instigator" player. Making the encounters more difficult or deadly isn't going to help. He WANTS to make something, anything, happen. So, try boring him. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything by trying.
If the fighter runs off and attracts the enemies to his party's location, that's one thing, but if he wanders off and falls in a pit trap, or a well, or a cage, and just gets to sit around and wait for the rest of the gang, maybe he'll think differently about it.
Oh man, I can't believe I didn't think of that! The Fighter wanders off and gets stuck in a deep hole. The rest of the party continues on their merry way in the opposite direction. Days later, the PCs find the corpse of the Fighter. 'Oh well,' they say, 'that's what you get for wandering off in a scary cavern all by your lonesome.'
So I was playing a game with a very large party (7 soon to be 8 players). However, several times now the party has agreed to go one direction in a dungeon and the fighter has decided to go another. This has lead to the party fighting 2 encounters at once which so far we have lived through but without anything left in us, last time this happened only one or two of us wasn't bloodied after the battle and no one had any dailies / action points left.
He believes that him being the defender everyone should follow him (Even though we have a paladin / swordmage plus a cleric). Also he doesn't see what hes doing wrong he claims that he can hold them off perfectly fine while beating them down which he can hold them off at (lvl 8) 28 AC normally 32 during total defense / second wind and his saves are really good. However, even with that he isn't a one man wrecking ball his DPR is low generally using the 1W to adjacent when they start and total defensing.
This is only going to get worse when his girlfriend starts playing a healer becuase he will be able to live even longer since she will always follow him.
So as a player is there anything I can do to stop this? He claims hes playing his character and I complained all last night about what he did so I think he got the point that I think he was being an idiot but I don't think he agrees with me.
invest in a golem, the kind of muscle that won't talk back
shield guardians can be expensive but worth it
and if your low lv try an attack dog or something
> The excuse that he is only "playing his character" is laughable. Coming from a
> guy who min-maxes his lvl 7 character to have 32 AC, but he suddenly wants
> to RP this aspect of his character.
While it may ring close to the truth in this particular case, the notion that mechanically optimized characters can't be roleplayed well is a false one, and is even known as the Stormwind Fallacy on these boards.
I defiantly min-max any character I play, but like to role-play as well.
in this particular case, this player does not like to role play at all. While we are in town, and other characters are running around interacting with NPCs.... his character is just trying to get everyone to head back towards the dungeon.
So he never likes to role-play, but blames his actions on role-playing... even if this were true, it is a poor way to role-play a fighter who is supposed to be protecting his party.
I should have explained that better.
As a side note, i don't think there is anything wrong with min-maxing, focusing on combat, and never role-playing. Some players lean towards hack-and-slash, and others towards role-playing.... but most are in the gray area between.
Everyone has their own style, I only have a problem with it when your style causes problems with the group.
in this particular case, this player does not like to role play at all. While we are in town, and other characters are running around interacting with NPCs.... his character is just trying to get everyone to head back towards the dungeon.
So he never likes to role-play, but blames his actions on role-playing... even if this were true, it is a poor way to role-play a fighter who is supposed to be protecting his party.
He just seems like a bad, selfish player in general.
Can he be put under the orders of someone else, perhaps?
Were he interested in role-playing more generally, I would suggest letting him gain his own platoon or similar unit to command and let him indulge his control-need that way. But frankly, this guy looks like he wants to control other players, and that is just bad.
The correct response, IMHO, to 'I'm just playing my character' as an excuse to continually be stupid is, 'So am I. My character is not going to continue to associate with someone who (insert list of Stupid Character Tricks here).'
right on! We have dealt with problem characters (not players) the same way. The rest of the party ingame decides theyhave had enough and confront the character and ask him to leave. That takes care of the "im just playing my character" crap
He's playing his character the way he wants to. If you or the party has a problem with it, deal with it in character not player to player. That is why it is called roleplaying. If the DM doesn't do anything about it I bet he's having the time of his life seeing you and the other party members looking frustrated at the PC in question and unable to do anything about it. As a DM myself, I would find this all highly amusing.
Grow a spine.
While it may ring close to the truth in this particular case, the notion that mechanically optimized characters can't be roleplayed well is a false one, and is even known as the Stormwind Fallacy on these boards.
Not true. I have an optimized Swordmage and I have yet to make any diplomacy, bluff or intimidate checks (8 Cha) because I know how to word my phrases and use what little charm I have to convince the NPCs and my DM.
Edit:
After actually reading this and seeing that the DM of the game is actually in this conversation, I have a few more opinions on this subject.
I find it offensive that the DM would willingly discuss trying to punish another character while other players in the same campaign are able to view this. What a DM decides to happen in a game should remain the DMs own thoughts/plans. I say it ruins the game and gives your other players (not the target player) the chance to force the target into a situation which would allow you to punish him. You should be ashamed. I don't discuss any of the sort with any of my players, especially two of which are my best friends. After the fact is a different story, though.
As for the PC Fighter in question, I think you should actually work with this guy. You can make a great campaign which would lead to his rise to fame, then put him and the party in a situation that relies solely on his single decision that would lead them to the promised land or cause thousands of people to die. If he fails he would be ostracized by the people of the lands and then you can work on him earning back the trust of the party and the people. FORCE him to roleplay, even in combat. Let him believe he's the main character, when he's not.
Also, the Warrior IS always the main character of the story in most cases.
Awesome, except that fighting fire with fire, contrary to popular opinion, doesn't work. It just makes a bigger inferno. The way to deal with this is, as posited before, leading the character into situations which will bore him, not challenge him. Pavlov him into following the party.
PS: Even though tanks usually take up the role of party leader, guess what, the best leaders know to listen to those that they lead. The leader of a group isn't the end all be all...he's simply an arbiter. A decision-maker when presented with choices that seem equally good in his eyes, and in the average view of those that follow him.
I find it offensive that the DM would willingly discuss trying to punish another character while other players in the same campaign are able to view this. What a DM decides to happen in a game should remain the DMs own thoughts/plans. I say it ruins the game and gives your other players (not the target player) the chance to force the target into a situation which would allow you to punish him. You should be ashamed. I don't discuss any of the sort with any of my players, especially two of which are my best friends. After the fact is a different story, though.
Sorry if I offended you... but I didn't tell the players anything of what I plan to do. They are upset at what the fighter is doing, and all I said was that I will talk with him and make sure it doesn't happen again. The players wouldn't force that situation... the whole point is that nobody wants that situation.
So I really do not see what you are upset about... i feel the same way about it as you, if you tell the players anything about your plans, it ruins the fun for everyone.
Seriously, this is very rude and immature. This idea that your "the bad-ass PC that everyone should listen to" is childish. He obviously wasn't elected leader of the group (and for good reason). The DM is under no obligation to have anything happen to this PC outside of the group. Just stop giving him anything to play with. He will get the picture. If he starts poking bee hives to get a response then you should seriously wonder if he is old enough to play the game.
Maybe the problem is the other players. They take the game too seriously and ruin the fun of roleplaying a fantasy adventure. They hate him because he's a maverick who does not wish to follow the status quo. The want to take the path of least resistance to the treasure while he wishes to take the road filled with peril in which the true treasure lies in the journey, not the finish.
A little food for thought there.
Oh yeah, tell your PCs to buy health potions so they won't get stuck having to do healing checks to save a fallen comrade. The party Cleric or Warlord should always have a least 3 PoH on him/her at all times.
You don't even have to kill them - just so long as they come really close.
Organized NPCs are fun for this: Have them capture rather than kill, and make the rest of the party have to come rescue the tank - and get in a little bit of humiliation (fighter stipped naked and dumped in a filthy pit) while you are at it.
For the players, if the DM isn't willing to help, the solution is to just ignore the fighter. Heck - lock the door behind him so he can't lead stuff back to him and just go on. It sounds like your group is large enough to do fairly well without him - so just do it. And if he dies, he dies.
And, of course, he doesn't get a share of any magic you find - even if that means selling it.
Maybe the next character will be a bit more of a team player.
Carl
Maybe the problem is the other players. They take the game too seriously and ruin the fun of roleplaying a fantasy adventure. They hate him because he's a maverick who does not wish to follow the status quo. The want to take the path of least resistance to the treasure while he wishes to take the road filled with peril in which the true treasure lies in the journey, not the finish.
A little food for thought there.
If the fun of roleplaying a fantasy adventure is causing trouble for your fellow players and trying to control them, then it's not a game I would be interested in.
The players listened to him and characters died. Simple as that.
He tries to control them because they are weak-minded. They didn't need to stop doing heal checks on downed PCs, yet they listened anyway. The two who has any say in who should be healed or not is the healer and the recepient of the heal who is making those death saving throws.
The players listened to him and characters died. Simple as that.
Is that supposed to make trying to control other PCs ok?