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| #1NovacatDec 24, 2011 1:34:05 | My previous thread sparked a lot of interesting discussion about how, when faced with two bad options, most D&D players tend to seek out some third option, whether it seems feasible or not. In this edition of What Would You Do, I present to you another real story from my campaign, but one with much less moral/ethical weight behind it. Put yourself in this guy's shoes, and tell me how you would react. One of my players is a dragonborn, who takes a very knight-in-shining-armor aproach to life. He's a paladin, and good to the point of naiveté. Well, the reason he's such a goody-two-shoes is because he's trying to atone for the sins of his ancestor, which disgraced and dishonored his clan. Basically, his ancestor, a warrior named Valtigar, was one of the two most trusted lieutenants of Verrik, the leader of the dragonborn forces during the Second Demon War 130 years ago. Verrik has become to the dragonborn a sort of Jesus/George Washington/William Wallace kind of figure, and Valtigar's betrayal led to Verrik's death. The other lieutenant, Zanith, hunted down and killed Valtigar after learning of the betrayal. Since that time, the descendants of Valitgar have lived in disgrace, while the descendants of Zanith have become strong and noble leaders of the dragonborn people. Well, new information and an indisputable witness have revealed that it was Zanith, and not Valtigar, who betrayed Verrik. Because Zanith was able to overpower Valtigar, no one was left to disprove Zanith's claims that Valtigar was the traitor, and so history was written by the victor. Thing is, Zanith's descendants have all been genuinely righteous and noble people, believing themselves to be part of a noble and honorable clan. The PC is the only remaining member of his clan, and the witness is ready and willing to tell the truth if asked to do so. Telling everyone the truth would utterly crush the Zanith clan, because of a tradition of "sins of the father." On the other hand, the PC has been trying to regain honor for his clan his entire life, and all he needs to do now to accomplish that is to tell the truth about what happened 130 years ago. Would you tell a true story that would throw a righteous and noble clan into ruin in order to regain your own honor? Or would you allow yourself to remain in disgrace in order to spare the innocent? Or do you see a third option that neither of us considered? |
| #2warghoulDec 24, 2011 2:21:09 | I would talk to the Zanith clan and let them know what I know. Hope they dont kill my PC or the witness. Get the family honor restored some how with your righteousness or I`m outting ya. If that doenst work become 'fallen' and slaughter the Zaniths. ;) |
| #3NovacatDec 24, 2011 2:30:54 | I would talk to the Zanith clan and let them know what I know. Hope they dont kill my PC or the witness. That last part seems a little... extreme. And counterproductive. |
| #4toweleybanDec 24, 2011 3:12:22 | Aren't both the dilemma's you've presented taken directly from Star Trek:TNG lol? |
| #5NovacatDec 24, 2011 3:41:38 | Aren't both the dilemma's you've presented taken directly from Star Trek:TNG lol? Admittedly, this one was largely inspired by Worf's discommendation story arc. I don't see the parallel with the other one, though. |
| #6wystenv2Dec 24, 2011 5:53:13 | I believe theres three ways of going about this; 1) If truely the only member left in the family, then chances are having the witness speak is only dooming another family to damnination, hence you would know for your purity in soul but never tell anyone else about what you have learnt. Afterall, if all these guys are fantastic people then too many years have passed to make a claim and it's better dying in digrace then to be redeemed and doom another family. I would also mention that doing this may change your alignment. 2) Speak with the other clan with the witness and have a merry old chat about the information and what the next step should be from here. Admitively, since they geninuely believe themselves to be noble and may not respond to that news well. Send a letter to them and offer to speak to one of their repersentives, two people from each side to have a talk over a good meal. 3) Have the witness talk and sigh, at best you redeemed your soul and avenged the old grudge. At worst, no one would beleive the witness or you. Violence in this situation offers not redemption nor forgiveness, and would prompt you down the path of evil. |
| #7NovacatDec 24, 2011 6:02:03 | Excellent post, Wystenv2. Yeah, neither of us considered the possibility of discussing the implications of this revelation with the Zanith clan privately. In regards your mention of alignment change for #1, I wouldn't really consider it an alignment issue, even if I used alignment in my game. The difference between talking and not talking can be seen as the difference between selfishness and selflessness, but it can also be seen as the difference between the truth and a lie. Right now, the Zanith clan is living a lie, and the PC's entire family line has been wrongfully accused of dishonor. That's how the PC saw it. And as a minor note on #3, there is zero chance that no one would believe the witness. That's what I meant by "indisputable witness." The nature of the witness's position is such that he is basically the final authority on what exactly transpired that day. But yeah, I see no need for violence, no matter what path you choose to take. |
| #8KruskDec 24, 2011 10:44:22 | Probably let it go, knowing that he has not only redeemed himself, but strengthened his legacy. If he encountered anyone who brought the old story up, he would correct them. Rise above it, and no need to force dishonor on another clan just for "accuracy". |
| #9navar100Dec 24, 2011 12:58:27 | Speak to Head of House Zanith; let him know what's going on. Have the Truth be known. With my Honor restored, immediately forgive and restore honor to House Zannith. Everyone lives happily and Honorably ever after, Honor fully restored to the Clan. If tradition and Honor demands that not be enough, as discussed with Head of House Zanith, then upon restoration of Honor for House Valtigar, House Valtigar and House Zannith are dissolved and combined to become House Verrik. Whether I'm Head of House or former Head of House Zanith is is to be discussed in that earlier meeting, which ever gives the more saving face. Maybe a third person. |
| #10DanTrackerDec 24, 2011 14:48:54 |
regardless of what you say, it doesn't feel believeable that any witness would be wholly above question. More importantly, why has this witness waited 130 years to speak out? especially if this witness can be wholly undisputed, why wait this long, and how does the news get published to all other dragonborn houses? It loses credibility? the suspension of disbelief is damaged by a deus ex machina, "No living creature would dispute this witness; it would be a completely undoubtable statment of the true facts never before revealed." It would seem petty, contrived, and not honorable to bring up the topic 130 years later with a revision such as this. |
| #11wystenv2Dec 24, 2011 16:17:42 | Excellent post, Wystenv2. Thanks, it's no problem. ^__^ Perhaps an alignment change is a bit too much, I just imagine there would be a lot of guilt hanging on the PC, easpically if the Zanith clan is discredited from the outright announcement. A lot of things will change for the worse for them, for the sake of the remaining member of the familys honour. That sounds like a pretty selfish act, even though the intentions are pure as so much time has passed since the killing that it's simply impractical to say "Oh, and that clan member whom you are proud of? Was a murderious traitor". While it might not be a alignment change, since you are damaging a clans reputation for all eternaty one's own desire? Thats something that should generate a lot of guilt. I imagine the best option would be to discuss this matter quietly with the head of the family to let him know, have a quiet chat and do nothing more of it. So that they know but their reputation isn't irrpairably damaged. Again, I am wondering why the witness wouldn't have mentioned this earlier. Easpically if a clan has been completely culled due to reject. If it was a couple of weeks to a month, it might make a little more sense, otherwise not so sure. While there is a probability of violence if the clan doesn't respond well to the information, but it definately should be the first, second or last port of call, unless intiated by the other side. Even then, making every effort to not kill them may further more enpower your cause as a good guy. |
| #12pluisjenDec 24, 2011 16:28:42 | If this guy is the last of his family then there's nobody's honor to restore except his own. It's much better to restore your own honor by being an awesome hero then by dooming another (far larger) clan and cause all sort of ruckus. He knows, and that should be enough for him. Now, let him restore the honor of his family by doing something so heroic and amazing that nobody can deny he's washed his forefathers sins from his family. |
| #13sallaDec 24, 2011 20:12:31 | Honor schmonor. It's already pointless, because the actions of one's ancestors are no reflection on him. There's no issue here. |
| #14warrlDec 24, 2011 21:37:50 | It's already pointless, because the actions of one's ancestors are no reflection on him. There's no issue here. Why would you say such a thing after being explicitly told that, in the context of the culture in question, it is flat out incorrect? I would suggest a letter to the head of the Zanith clan saying that new evidence has been found which casts into question which of the two clan-founders was the traitor - be no more specific than that. Then say something to the effect of "But if the sins of the father be visited upon the child, surely the honor of the father must do likewise? The clan of Zanith has been exemplary in its honor since that day, and you are the heir of this proud tradition without regard to what came before. The clan of Vatigar, scorned and often hunted, has nonetheless held to the path of honor as much as it was able. I wish to restore my clan to honor but in a manner that does not damage the honor of your clan. Perhaps there is some service I could perform for your clan, that would then lead you to publicly acknowledge and honor me and my clan. Then the details of more than a century past could be reburied and forgotten." Assuming such an agreement is reached, the official explanation can be that unspecified new evidence shows that Zanith simply made a mistake in accusing and attacking Vatigar, that he had reasonable cause for jumping to that conclusion (let's not mention that the cause was to hide his own guilt) but the new evidence shows that Vatigar was clearly innocent. Since all participants in the incident are dead, there is no point in pursuing the matter further. The current head of clan Zanith then apologizes to the current head of clan Vatigar for that error and the subsequent persecution, the latter accepts the apology and thanks clan Zanith for honorably acknowledging the mistake as soon as the facts were known, and (at least in theory) everyone is happy. Another possible resolution, since there is only one surviving member of clan Vatigar, would be for the head of clan Zanith to adopt that person. The character is now a member of an honored clan, and clan Vatigar is extinct. Of course this might not be acceptable to the character. There is also, of course, the option that the head of clan Zanith sends spies to learn who/what the witness is, then assassins to destroy the witness and the character. (Why didn't the witness come forward sooner? She was also killed that day. She's a Deva. She's just now getting around to being reincarnate in an area where the question is relevant. Or that's one possibility, anyway.) |
| #15crowscapeDec 25, 2011 0:15:18 | The deva could probably be ignored. Pretty much anything short of the return of Verrik himself to set the record straight would be met with disbelief. Think about it: the story requires the evil lieutenant to propagate a clan of the most righteous individuals for the purpose of... serving the people he betrayed? If I was in that character's position, I wouldn't hold out much hope of the Deva convincing anyone that the above occurred. In fact, as righteous as I am supposed to be, I would likely do my best to keep the secret and dissuade her from ever speaking of it again, lest it bring her into disrepute. I would then continue the quest to let my actions "atone" for the "sin" of my ancestor, at least in the eyes of the people. I might also suspect that appearances of the Zanith clan are not what they seem, and there is likely to be a dark conspiracy at their heart. |
| #16NovacatDec 25, 2011 4:12:54 | Pretty much anything short of the return of Verrik himself to set the record straight would be met with disbelief. Funny you should mention it... Verrik was not actually killed that day. He was captured and placed in a temporal stasis lock as a trophy. The imprisonment was supposed to be unbreakable: only the power of the daemonlord Raz'Thel himself could break the seal. Well, the party has an infernal warlock, and guess who his patron is... which means he wields the power of Raz'Thel, and was able to break the seal. Verrik, now revived, informed the PC of the true story after recognizing him as a relative of Valtigar's. The party returned to the capital in glory as Verrik's rescuers, and once Verrik learned of the situation concerning the incorrect history, he was hesitant to do anything that would harm the Zanith clan, but made it clear that, in the interest of justice, he's willing to set the record straight if the PC wishes it. Unfortunately, the player who played the character in question now works on Sundays, which is when I run my game. He was unable to give a final answer, and his character's story arc basically came to a close without a satisfying resolution, as I never play the PCs in the absence of the player. That said, I really like this idea: I would suggest a letter to the head of the Zanith clan saying that new evidence has been found which casts into question which of the two clan-founders was the traitor - be no more specific than that. Then say something to the effect of "But if the sins of the father be visited upon the child, surely the honor of the father must do likewise? The clan of Zanith has been exemplary in its honor since that day, and you are the heir of this proud tradition without regard to what came before. The clan of Vatigar, scorned and often hunted, has nonetheless held to the path of honor as much as it was able. I wish to restore my clan to honor but in a manner that does not damage the honor of your clan. Perhaps there is some service I could perform for your clan, that would then lead you to publicly acknowledge and honor me and my clan. Then the details of more than a century past could be reburied and forgotten." I think I'll have the story play out that the PC did this, since it seems to me to be the best possible solution for all involved. |
| #17NovacatDec 25, 2011 4:19:01 | It's already pointless, because the actions of one's ancestors are no reflection on him. There's no issue here. I think the idea was that a dragonborn played by Salla wouldn't concern himself with such traditions, even if they are held by normal dragonborn culture. At least, I assume that's what he meant; Salla is not someone I could see making useless posts. However, in the context of the question, we must assume that the dragonborn in question, whether he be the one in my campaign, or the hypothetical one played by anyone reading this thread, does concern himself with the dishonor placed upon him and his family by the sins-of-the-father tradition. Otherwise, the question basically becomes moot, resulting in apathy toward whether the truth is known. I suppose that's an answer of a sort, but it's not really an interesting one, nor within the intended parameters of the original question. |
| #18crowscapeDec 25, 2011 9:11:10 | Verrik was not actually killed that day. He was captured and placed in a temporal stasis lock as a trophy. The imprisonment was supposed to be unbreakable: only the power of the daemonlord Raz'Thel himself could break the seal. Well, the party has an infernal warlock, and guess who his patron is... which means he wields the power of Raz'Thel, and was able to break the seal. Verrik, now revived, informed the PC of the true story after recognizing him as a relative of Valtigar's. The party returned to the capital in glory as Verrik's rescuers, and once Verrik learned of the situation concerning the incorrect history, he was hesitant to do anything that would harm the Zanith clan, but made it clear that, in the interest of justice, he's willing to set the record straight if the PC wishes it. I would say the fact that a Valtigar was the one to free Verrik should be enough to redeem the clan without resort to harming Zanith. Thus, there is little good to be gained by setting the record straight, and possibly great evil if it causes Zanith to start emulating the true colors of their ancestor as they struggle to cling to their station. |
| #19NovacatDec 26, 2011 5:37:18 | Verrik was not actually killed that day. He was captured and placed in a temporal stasis lock as a trophy. The imprisonment was supposed to be unbreakable: only the power of the daemonlord Raz'Thel himself could break the seal. Well, the party has an infernal warlock, and guess who his patron is... which means he wields the power of Raz'Thel, and was able to break the seal. Verrik, now revived, informed the PC of the true story after recognizing him as a relative of Valtigar's. The party returned to the capital in glory as Verrik's rescuers, and once Verrik learned of the situation concerning the incorrect history, he was hesitant to do anything that would harm the Zanith clan, but made it clear that, in the interest of justice, he's willing to set the record straight if the PC wishes it. Good point. |
| #20sallaDec 26, 2011 11:08:09 | It's already pointless, because the actions of one's ancestors are no reflection on him. There's no issue here. Bingo. |
| #21CaericDec 30, 2011 2:54:37 | Speak to Head of House Zanith; let him know what's going on. Have the Truth be known. With my Honor restored, immediately forgive and restore honor to House Zannith. Everyone lives happily and Honorably ever after, Honor fully restored to the Clan. This seems the best route. You bring forth the information. If the people are looking like they are taking poorly, remind them that the clan forgives the Zanith clan for this mistake in light of a century or more of purity and nobility, and that they should be proud of what they are now, and be less concerned about their roots. That's what I'd do. If the Zaniths still can't handle that, I guess I'd have to feel bad and live with it. A knight of good has done all he can do at that point, and must live with the consequences. It's better that it's learned now than later. And when it comes to D&D and magic, later is always possible. |
| #22robertread3Dec 31, 2011 3:49:29 | if i were this paladin i would feel it is my duty by clan and rules of society to let the truth be known. they are held by the same rules as my clan was and should suffer the same punishment as my clan did, it is justice in its true, arbitrary form however im bad at playing goodie 2 shoes when the other clan could pay to shut me up |