I found a new DnD group. Everything was going well. One of the players left due to an argument with the DM. He had made some comments about always being hit which I dismissed as he seemed more upset about other things.
So I am then the only defender (Dragonborn Fighter) the character concept was basic but I was really enjoying it. He wanted to become a master of his blade. I knew the steel vanguard thing was going to happen and I really liked the idea of the feats with a Kensai.
Anyways I noticed how we always seemed to be on our last hit point and it didn't matter what powers I took to increase my AC we always ended up on few HP and no powers.
So I mentioned it to the DM in a text. I told him that I found it strange that I kept getting hit, that I was steering my character to one way and it felt like I was being forced to be a different way. I also mentioned that I had started counting how many times I had gotten hit.
He seemed to be very reasonable, he told me how he had had bad experiences with another defender cheating and other problems he had with the player.
Anyways I get an email the next day from him and there is a lot in it I don't get. He is very insulting. He also tells me he does it his way quoting Gygax at me about how the DM is law. He told me he changes rolls all the time to make it more exciting.
Anyway he got very verbally abusive. He made comments about my wife, about my family. Wished I had cancer. That kind of thing.
Now the things I think I did wrong - I presumed he would at least listen outside of the game rather than doing it in front of people. I was changing characters a lot trying to find a character I was happy with (partially due to feeling like it didn't matter how I did it I wasn't doing my 'job', actually that's not entirely true I also love making DnD characters it's a bit of a running joke in other games). Not understanding the whole it is not a co-operative game but a DM game.
If your DM has started insulting you over your perfectly valid question, it's time to leave. It's unfortunate if he's your only choice, though another player in your group might wish to step up to the task.
I can accept that a DM may have different ideas about what makes a game good. I can even accept one cheating at the dice to improve the game. Though I do agree that if that's your DM you should probably stop playing a defender and switch to a striker since you're not capable of using defences against that sort of DM.
But bringing your wife into it is beyond the pale.
I'd find a different game. I don't think your DM sounds like someone I'd care to game with.
-abs
So I am asking for a little feedback. No names will be used.
I found a new DnD group. Everything was going well. One of the players left due to an argument with the DM. He had made some comments about always being hit which I dismissed as he seemed more upset about other things.
So I am then the only defender (Dragonborn Fighter) the character concept was basic but I was really enjoying it. He wanted to become a master of his blade. I knew the steel vanguard thing was going to happen and I really liked the idea of the feats with a Kensai.
Anyways I noticed how we always seemed to be on our last hit point and it didn't matter what powers I took to increase my AC we always ended up on few HP and no powers.
So I mentioned it to the DM in a text. I told him that I found it strange that I kept getting hit, that I was steering my character to one way and it felt like I was being forced to be a different way. I also mentioned that I had started counting how many times I had gotten hit.
He seemed to be very reasonable, he told me how he had had bad experiences with another defender cheating and other problems he had with the player.
Anyways I get an email the next day from him and there is a lot in it I don't get. He is very insulting. He also tells me he does it his way quoting Gygax at me about how the DM is law. He told me he changes rolls all the time to make it more exciting.
Anyway he got very verbally abusive. He made comments about my wife, about my family. Wished I had cancer. That kind of thing.
Now the things I think I did wrong - I presumed he would at least listen outside of the game rather than doing it in front of people. I was changing characters a lot trying to find a character I was happy with (partially due to feeling like it didn't matter how I did it I wasn't doing my 'job', actually that's not entirely true I also love making DnD characters it's a bit of a running joke in other games). Not understanding the whole it is not a co-operative game but a DM game.
OP, you will probably be better off leaving. This is a game, and unless you left out a bunch of stuff in your original post, the DM going from being reasonable when you texted him to a raving lunatic on a power trip in his following email is unacceptable. D&D is a game, and should bring fun, not useless drama. Jobs are what folks have if they want to be stressed out, not D&D. Based on your description of how insulting, angry, and unreasonable the DM became with zero provocation, I don't recommend that you try to stick it out, it isn't likely to be salvageable. My 2 cents.
So I am asking for a little feedback. No names will be used.
I found a new DnD group. Everything was going well. One of the players left due to an argument with the DM. He had made some comments about always being hit which I dismissed as he seemed more upset about other things.
So I am then the only defender (Dragonborn Fighter) the character concept was basic but I was really enjoying it. He wanted to become a master of his blade. I knew the steel vanguard thing was going to happen and I really liked the idea of the feats with a Kensai.
Anyways I noticed how we always seemed to be on our last hit point and it didn't matter what powers I took to increase my AC we always ended up on few HP and no powers.
So I mentioned it to the DM in a text. I told him that I found it strange that I kept getting hit, that I was steering my character to one way and it felt like I was being forced to be a different way. I also mentioned that I had started counting how many times I had gotten hit.
He seemed to be very reasonable, he told me how he had had bad experiences with another defender cheating and other problems he had with the player.
Anyways I get an email the next day from him and there is a lot in it I don't get. He is very insulting. He also tells me he does it his way quoting Gygax at me about how the DM is law. He told me he changes rolls all the time to make it more exciting.
Anyway he got very verbally abusive. He made comments about my wife, about my family. Wished I had cancer. That kind of thing.
Now the things I think I did wrong - I presumed he would at least listen outside of the game rather than doing it in front of people. I was changing characters a lot trying to find a character I was happy with (partially due to feeling like it didn't matter how I did it I wasn't doing my 'job', actually that's not entirely true I also love making DnD characters it's a bit of a running joke in other games). Not understanding the whole it is not a co-operative game but a DM game.
I have a slight temper problem. I'm aware of it, and can control it most of the time. Very rarely slipping. With that said.
I would have driven to this DM's house; that very night. Knocked on his door. Put him in a very forceful headlock. Dragged him to his computer, and made him open said email addressed to me. Then he would have explained each think he said about my family. Had I not liked his answers, I would have hit him, very hard in the face. Multiple times as needed for him to grown up and relize you can't talk to people you know and who know you like you can random people on the internet.
Lets admit it, most of you would punch have the people that open their mouths on the net to you.
The only question mark that I see hanging over this is whether he was actually the one who sent that email given that the two responses were so different.
It IS wierd. In the text reply, the OP says the DM was reasonable and then in the email the next day, it's Mr. Hyde on roid rage.
My advice: confront the douchemaster with the email, in front of the other players. If he did send you that email, a flurry of blows to the nards would be an excellent parting gift.
Occasionally, if it's to ward off something extremely unpleasant from happening to tweak things a little bit, that can be OK. But not just dictating what happens constantly or you're just along for the ride rather than playing anything.
And my understanding of "Gygaxian" style DMing is to let the dice fall pretty much as they may, to not be shy about letting the PCs get killed, but also not to feel constrained by the letter of the rules if it will help make a game better.
I never met Gygax, but I feel safe saying at any rate he wouldn't have advocated making up all the numbers to satisfy his own sense of drama.
The only question mark that I see hanging over this is whether he was actually the one who sent that email given that the two responses were so different.
It IS wierd. In the text reply, the OP says the DM was reasonable and then in the email the next day, it's Mr. Hyde on roid rage.
My advice: confront the douchemaster with the email, in front of the other players. If he did send you that email, a flurry of blows to the nards would be an excellent parting gift.
It sounds like the GM is a drunk.
Drunk, Manic-depressive, schizophrenic, or just a dick in his spare time, it sounds like the GM is that. And, frankly, it is TOTALLY not worth putting up with that ****.
Give him one and only one chance to improve and never again in any way bring non-game things to the game session, and if he argues *in the slightest*, or if he screws up in the future in even the smallest way, quit.
It is *not worth your time* to play in that game.
It sounds like the GM is a drunk.
Yeah, this was my thought too.
The way you made your situation sound is that he is actually manipulating the outcome to a finer degree than my DM. I personally do not think that you need to ensure the PC's are always down to their last hit point before the encounter ends. You don't have to have close battles all the time. Sometimes it's good to have a lopsided battle here or there. If your DM is trying to manipulate the die rolls so much to ensure battles are close every single time, I think he is just overdoing it. That's just my opinion. Your group's opinion may vary.
As for the attitude of the DM in his email, it could be one of many things. On the most positive possibility, it could be he was upset that you challenged him about the way he runs his game. He may be writing you a nasty email and then decided to calm down, but accidentally hit . If in fact his last sentence did not end with a proper punctuation mark that may be what happened. There is a slim possibility of this, but I thought I'd mention it.
I think that more likely thing is that he didn't like the fact that you challenged the way he runs the game. The fact that you mentioned to him that you were counting the hits on your character may have really bothered him. He remained calm on the spot and perhaps he just blew up behind the email. If you really want to stay with his group, I would ask him why he sent such an email with hurtful personal comments. You can then decide if it is a satisfactory response and act accordingly. Oh, you really need to either talk to him on the phone or in person rather than via email. This is a sensitive situation, and you really need to hear his tone rather than just the words.
Personally, I would rather not play with him if he is going to make personal attacks on me like that.
T
I would print out the e-mail, and take it to him. Let him read it and ask him if he sent it. If he did, then you simply politely inform him that you will no longer be associating with him in any fashion, and leave. If not, try to figure out what the heck happened (see: little brother theory).
So I am asking for a little feedback. No names will be used.
I found a new DnD group. Everything was going well. One of the players left due to an argument with the DM. He had made some comments about always being hit which I dismissed as he seemed more upset about other things.
So...What happened there then ?
I'm curious if the DM has pulled stuff like this before, or if this is a vindictive player that got into his email.
It seems rather strange to me aswell that the DM would first be reasonable, then go batpoo insane after a while.
I'd go with Salla's advice, using violence, however tempting, is more likely to land you more trouble than its worth.
As for the DM fudging rolls to try and keep the game exiting, well...
Been there, done that, and it only really works if the players suspect nothing.
I have done that to the point that I didnt bother tracking HP for the enemies, they just died when I found it dramatically appropriate.
But if the players are expecting a roleplaying game, and are served roleplay storytelling, it's not really a good thing. Since fudging rolls that much takes the "game" out of it completly.
Be ready to drop the game like a rotten egg, but there's no need to give up a game just because you didn't have all the facts.
Very few people would be that vengeful against a person, or their ex-DM, to annoy unrelated people. And if there was somebody like that, they probably wouldn't have easy access to your email because you wouldn't give them the opportunity.
A vindictive "prank" email would be something like calling into question the DM's sexuality and/or intelligence, from an amateur.
The first conversation may have been while he was in a public kind of area and had to restrain himself. Then when alone he might have become an "Internet bully," though the personality disorder seems most probable to me.
Not all personality disorders are necessarily always permanent things that make a person a pariah but I don't think it will remove hurtful things he's said to you even to find out what's wrong.
Substance abuse doesn't seem like a main contributer (perhaps a minor one though); at least I've never experienced an "angry drunk" to rant and rave about a minor-seeming thing like a D&D question. I don't think it's too easy to type when that ****-faced either.
I would expect a substance "rage" to be more like a litany of random profanity and declarations of power, like "**** YOU!!! and your family! yoU're out of thE group stupid ********!" I don't really have direct experience with such things though.
Personaly I would go talk to him about in a calm way. You won't find out what happened by people spectulating on these boards.
Those options wouldn't include: "continue playing." Even if his little brother typed the email, if he's willing to override the role the stats and dice rolls play in the game, he's not interested in a shared storytelling experience. You're not a participant in the game; you're either his audience or his victim.
One of them would be handing the email out to the group. I'm extremely hesitant to disclose private communications with people other than the intended recipient - there's an expectation of privacy that should be respected - but someone who is capable of that kind of extreme swing in behavior could be dangerous to other people. If he can oscillate between seeming completely reasonable and bagging on your wife and wishing you get cancer, his personality is toxic, and you have a responsibility to warn the people he's playing with to give them a chance to run.
Yes, run.
There was a lot more said by him that I left out but the salient points were hit.
I just dont get how someone can be reasonable about it one day during personal text talk and then think about it for a day and go ape because I challenged his authority.
Any ways this person has managed to destroy 2 groups (the one he played in with me running it and the one he ran on a different night with me playing).
The thing that really upset me is that my wife caught some of the things he said and got very upset as he bought her into it. She let him come into our home where are children are and he turned out to be such an unstable human being.
I still think it was worth trying to communicate with him about it I just wish when he interviewed me for his campaign he had explained his world view and seemed so reasonable.
I have had 3 of his old players contact me and tell me they left for similar reasons.
Unfortunately he was the writer of the email. I did get a different email from his brother and another player in the group apologizing for his actions.
There was a lot more said by him that I left out but the salient points were hit.
I just dont get how someone can be reasonable about it one day during personal text talk and then think about it for a day and go ape because I challenged his authority.
Any ways this person has managed to destroy 2 groups (the one he played in with me running it and the one he ran on a different night with me playing).
The thing that really upset me is that my wife caught some of the things he said and got very upset as he bought her into it. She let him come into our home where are children are and he turned out to be such an unstable human being.
I still think it was worth trying to communicate with him about it I just wish when he interviewed me for his campaign he had explained his world view and seemed so reasonable.
I have had 3 of his old players contact me and tell me they left for similar reasons.
You're handling all of this very maturely. I think walking away would be the right thing to do. This guy needs help, in addition to a swift kick in the ass, but that's for him to seek when people cease to tolerate him.
I can only say I'm sorry to hear this guy turned out to be so unstable. But I also agree with the others about talking to the rest of the group (and the old players that contacted you perhaps?) and offer to host a game for them. Just because your current DM obviously needs help doesn't mean the rest of you can't have fun.
+1
I still think it was worth trying to communicate with him about it I just wish when he interviewed me for his campaign he had explained his world view and seemed so reasonable.
I commend you for continuing to try to communicate with him in a reasonable manner. I'm just wondering what you hope to gain from it. Do you expect him to appologise and change his ways? Are you trying to save the group? It seems that his history indicates that what you experienced has happened again and again. I would also be concerned about your wife and family. She caught wind of what he said and your continuing to associate with the DM may put yourself in an awkward situation with your wife and family. I certainly hope you know what you are doing. I just feel a little uneasy for your wife and kids while you try to deal with the situation with your DM. I wish you the best of luck.
Also, write the other guys - everyone but him - that you'd still be interested in playing with them. Without Mr. Hyde.
I still think it was worth trying to communicate with him about it I just wish when he interviewed me for his campaign he had explained his world view and seemed so reasonable.
I commend you for continuing to try to communicate with him in a reasonable manner. I'm just wondering what you hope to gain from it. Do you expect him to appologise and change his ways? Are you trying to save the group? It seems that his history indicates that what you experienced has happened again and again. I would also be concerned about your wife and family. She caught wind of what he said and your continuing to associate with the DM may put yourself in an awkward situation with your wife and family. I certainly hope you know what you are doing. I just feel a little uneasy for your wife and kids while you try to deal with the situation with your DM. I wish you the best of luck.
Definitely worth keeping in mind.
The point of keeping in touch with the rest of the group is a good one. You guys just need to jettison this DM, he's extra baggage that is holding everyone back. Given his attitude, it's worth a big FU and "You are not necessary."
In any case, best of luck.
T
He's not psycho, guys. He's classic passive-aggressive. If you talk to him about it, he'll dissemble, probably lie about not writing it, and then you'll get another ranting email that he sent at 2am.
The point of keeping in touch with the rest of the group is a good one. You guys just need to jettison this DM, he's extra baggage that is holding everyone back. Given his attitude, it's worth a big FU and "You are not necessary."
In any case, best of luck.
T
Normally, I'd agree, but wishing cancer on someone? That's aggressive in the traditional sense, nothing passive about that. Way out of line.
The funny thing is the group is his wife, his younger brother and another guy.
THey all seemed to think it was the norm and he is ok. I told them he should seek some help and stop his drug taking.
But what do I know...
So I am out of the group. I had no interest in patching things up I wished him and his family a good life.
The funny thing is the group is his wife, his younger brother and another guy.
THey all seemed to think it was the norm and he is ok. I told them he should seek some help and stop his drug taking.
But what do I know...
Good idea. And good luck. Hope you find a better gaming group.
By the way I would probably had punched him hard...though that is because I just recently watched a friend died of cancer...
So my guess he is going to eventualy say the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time.
So I am out of the group. I had no interest in patching things up I wished him and his family a good life.
The funny thing is the group is his wife, his younger brother and another guy.
THey all seemed to think it was the norm and he is ok. I told them he should seek some help and stop his drug taking.
But what do I know...
Drug taking? Well that at least fills in one part of the puzzle.
Guess the other players were fine with his constant cheating.
"cheating" is relative. But yes, he's not playing well.
Guess the other players were fine with his constant cheating.
Having the DM fudge some rolls is not necessarily a bad thing. One of the best DM's I played with does this. He has told me so when we discussed the game and DM'ing. As long as players enjoy the game, it generally isn't an issue.
The issue with this particular person is the way he reacted to some criticisms you have regarding how he runs his games. I had some criticisms of a house rule that my DM used and we discussed it like reasonable people. No insults were thrown. The reaction of this particular DM is the issue and I think the OP is better off leaving his group. I guess the other players are either used to his attitudes or just aren't aware of other styles of play. In any case, that is not the OP's issue here.
The funny thing is the group is his wife, his younger brother and another guy.
THey all seemed to think it was the norm and he is ok. I told them he should seek some help and stop his drug taking.
It looks like the whole group was stacked against you from the start. His wife and brother? That's already +2 vs you. And a druggie DM to boot. That whole environment was probably not inducive for an enjoyable game anyways. I hope you find another group with a kool, sane DM.
Consider forwarding it to the police as well. I'm reasonably sure that such an email qualifies as harrassment. Since this is an established behavioral trait with this guy, he may need some treatment.
Personally, I'd print the email, take it to the next session, show it to everyone while the DM is present, tell the rest of the group that I'd be fine with playing with them in a different campaign, and inform the DM in a controlled fasion that if he dares contact or approach me or any of my family again, I will make him wish he'd never been born. But then, I've always been a fan of tackling conflict head-on.
So I am asking for a little feedback. No names will be used.
I found a new DnD group. Everything was going well. One of the players left due to an argument with the DM. He had made some comments about always being hit which I dismissed as he seemed more upset about other things.
So I am then the only defender (Dragonborn Fighter) the character concept was basic but I was really enjoying it. He wanted to become a master of his blade. I knew the steel vanguard thing was going to happen and I really liked the idea of the feats with a Kensai.
Anyways I noticed how we always seemed to be on our last hit point and it didn't matter what powers I took to increase my AC we always ended up on few HP and no powers.
So I mentioned it to the DM in a text. I told him that I found it strange that I kept getting hit, that I was steering my character to one way and it felt like I was being forced to be a different way. I also mentioned that I had started counting how many times I had gotten hit.
He seemed to be very reasonable, he told me how he had had bad experiences with another defender cheating and other problems he had with the player.
Anyways I get an email the next day from him and there is a lot in it I don't get. He is very insulting. He also tells me he does it his way quoting Gygax at me about how the DM is law. He told me he changes rolls all the time to make it more exciting.
Anyway he got very verbally abusive. He made comments about my wife, about my family. Wished I had cancer. That kind of thing.
Now the things I think I did wrong - I presumed he would at least listen outside of the game rather than doing it in front of people. I was changing characters a lot trying to find a character I was happy with (partially due to feeling like it didn't matter how I did it I wasn't doing my 'job', actually that's not entirely true I also love making DnD characters it's a bit of a running joke in other games). Not understanding the whole it is not a co-operative game but a DM game.
just wondering where mr.gygax said that the DM word is law...even at the cost of your players having fun and a good time.
simple soultion I would leave. it also sounds like this guy didn't want to confront you directly, but hiding behind a email
just wondering where mr.gygax said that the DM word is law...even at the cost of your players having fun and a good time.
Gygax actually said that *his* word was law, for all D&D games everywhere.
This is because Gary Gygax was incompetent, and D&D took off and the current version is playable *despite* him, not because of him.
Guess the other players were fine with his constant cheating.
"cheating" is relative. But yes, he's not playing well.
When the DM is fudging almost every single roll, and hampering the players every efforts, it's cheating. A roll here and there is fine, if it makes the game more fun (which is why Rule 0 exists), but not this crap. I'd be out of that game ASAP.
Forward the email to the rest of the group, adding that you will not be playing any more.
Consider forwarding it to the police as well. I'm reasonably sure that such an email qualifies as harrassment. Since this is an established behavioral trait with this guy, he may need some treatment.
Personally, I'd print the email, take it to the next session, show it to everyone while the DM is present, tell the rest of the group that I'd be fine with playing with them in a different campaign, and inform the DM in a controlled fasion that if he dares contact or approach me or any of my family again, I will make him wish he'd never been born. But then, I've always been a fan of tackling conflict head-on.
That's probably not a wise idea. For one thing, they're his family. For another, the DM hasn't made any threats or contacted the OP after being told not to. Finally, giving an ultimatum and implying harm as a consequence for failure to comply might be interpreted as a threat.
just wondering where mr.gygax said that the DM word is law...even at the cost of your players having fun and a good time.
Gygax actually said that *his* word was law, for all D&D games everywhere.
This is because Gary Gygax was incompetent, and D&D took off and the current version is playable *despite* him, not because of him.
I hate speaking ill of the dead, especially since he help give us this system that I enjoy, but I do have to agree. Anyone here ever play Weapons of the Gods? It's a game that actually eliminated Rule 0 and forces the GM IN THE RULES to work things out with players for a positive role playing experience.
Guess the other players were fine with his constant cheating.
"cheating" is relative. But yes, he's not playing well.
When the DM is fudging almost every single roll, and hampering the players every efforts, it's cheating. A roll here and there is fine, if it makes the game more fun (which is why Rule 0 exists), but not this crap. I'd be out of that game ASAP.
^^ Agreed. What's the point of making a High AC build when the GM is just going to be saying "I always hit" no matter how high you go? It'd be like dealing with nothing but magic attacks if you made a high DR build, or insanely high SR and spell immunity with Mage Slayer feats when playing a mage.
) but sometimes the reverse can be a bad idea. I recall one game, World of Synnibarr, where from what I can understand, the GM is forced to roll a percentile dice to decide, well, anything. The game isn't even allowing the GM to decide whether, say, a airship is safe or not. Nope, that's up to "Fate"(read: sheer luck or lack thereof). Granted, this could be interesting, but I don't know what level of storytelling you can tell if you're not allowed to write the damn story.I can deal with a GM using the rules to add suspense and diffulcty. That allows me to think of ways to overcome the situation and I feel gratified for succeeding. If a GM is going to rule 0 everything I try to do then I'm stuck waiting to act until they tell me how to act. See the difference?
That game sounds like the creators where seriously licking windows and huffing "Party Liquor" (Paint thinner for those who do not watch squidbillies) while writing the rules. It's a good thing I haven't torrented those books (Only used as a review before purchasing) otherwise I'd demand a refund.
That's probably not a wise idea. For one thing, they're his family. For another, the DM hasn't made any threats or contacted the OP after being told not to. Finally, giving an ultimatum and implying harm as a consequence for failure to comply might be interpreted as a threat.
Oh, I agree completely. Hence my advice was the preceding bit.
That was just my own personal approach, which, while not particularly "sensible", is nevertheless immensely satisfying. Been there, done that in similar situations (non-game-related, but received the same treatment)... and it does seem to work, in my experience.You make a very good point about the family; I merely assumed that since they apologised on behalf of the cretin, they might be willing to acknowledge his misbehavior openly too.
Back to the OP, though... one thing I kinda brushed past and just noticed was the assertion that everyone expects players and DM to fudge the rolls a bit.
WHAT?! Rule 0 means the DM rules the dice, not vice versa... but players NEVER get to mess with their rolls. That's cheating, pure and simple.
Probably best just to shake the dust from your feet and find a decent group to play with.
There should be a rule -1 that says, "Toss out rule 0 if it is causing people to not have fun."
There should be a rule -1 that says, "Toss out rule 0 if it is causing people to not have fun."
Or just refuse to play with GM's who use it in Mid game for a way to not listen to their players.
Having a pre-determined set of houseruled rules is alright. This lets players know what they are getting into. Changing the rules mid-game, however, does nothing but kill the enjoyment for everyone.
There should be a rule -1 that says, "Toss out rule 0 if it is causing people to not have fun."
Or just refuse to play with GM's who use it in Mid game for a way to not listen to their players.
Having a pre-determined set of houseruled rules is alright. This lets players know what they are getting into. Changing the rules mid-game, however, does nothing but kill the enjoyment for everyone.
Fair point, but sometimes its not done intentionally. Sometimes things just happen where a dm remembers a rule wrong or doesn't know it at all and I'd rather them go with a decision then bogging the game down with a back and forth discussion/flipping through the book to find the correct ruling. There are other times where the DM could have messed things up with their notes and they need to do a bit of tweaking to correct their mistakes, and when players want to try something...inventive, rule 0 usually has to be involved.
Rule 0 exists to tell people to "Shut up and deal" not to reach an agreement.