Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gyrcion Jun 14, 2009 23:20:23	Heres an html file of my character sheet. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7W191YMY I need help with some really good feats or books to help me with improving my Halfling Rogue 's damage or usefullness in combat. Can anyone offer any tips? Right now i got a few skill tricks to make things interesting but i want to know what you would do to increase his dmg or find new ways to sneak attack characters by utilizing flanking, concealment, feinting, etc and the feats that would make it all easier.
#2 drackthor Jun 14, 2009 23:39:53	Having +4 armor giving 2 DR means you've got bigger problems than what you've got to do in combat.
#3 gyrcion Jun 14, 2009 23:59:01	Having +4 armor giving 2 DR means you've got bigger problems than what you've got to do in combat. the armor itself isnt plus 4, its just mithril chain shirt. +4 ac my mistake!
#4 drackthor Jun 15, 2009 0:06:40	Oh, alright. I was gonna say, it might be time to talk to the Ol' DM. :P
#5 gyrcion Jun 15, 2009 0:12:17	Oh, alright. I was gonna say, it might be time to talk to the Ol' DM. :P haha kay. Any ideas for my rogue though?
#6 prince_of_parkness Jun 15, 2009 4:40:51	haha kay. Any ideas for my rogue though? As far as damage goes, feat wise two weapon fighting and craven are obvious choices, maybe you could retrain combat expertise? As for gaining sneak attack, the easiest way after flanking is to use UMD to cast spells such as grease and greater blinking, but that would require max out ranks in UMD. Feiting is not recomended. Why do you have a -4 penalty to AC?
#7 gyrcion Jun 15, 2009 5:20:34	As far as damage goes, feat wise two weapon fighting and craven are obvious choices, maybe you could retrain combat expertise? As for gaining sneak attack, the easiest way after flanking is to use UMD to cast spells such as grease and greater blinking, but that would require max out ranks in UMD. Feiting is not recomended. Why do you have a -4 penalty to AC? First the -4 to ac is to represent the +4 AC of the mithril shirt being converted to 2DR/2dmg subdual as a homerule. Second, Why is Feinting not recommended? I get a sneak attack next turn. Any books that you know of that would be useful? I'm familiar with Complete Scoundrel, Complete Adventurer, Races of the Wild, PH II, etc but i want to know if there are any really good feats that i can get that will help me with my dmg or in combat. Also, Two Weapon fighting sucks for me because i only get ot attack with both weapons if i'm doing a full attack, and being a lvl 6, 30HP creature with 15 AC is not exactly the best of idea. I need to stay mobile.
#8 innabinder Jun 15, 2009 6:52:55	Second, Why is Feinting not recommended? I get a sneak attack next turn. Because it never scales. Because a 1st level Rogue with TWF or Rapid Shot gets two sneak attacks/round, and more as he gains iterative attacks, whilst you're stuck spending a move action in order to get a single SA. This also interferes with your mobility concerns, below. Also, Two Weapon fighting sucks for me because i only get ot attack with both weapons if i'm doing a full attack, and being a lvl 6, 30HP creature with 15 AC is not exactly the best of idea. I need to stay mobile. See above as to why TWF is a superior choice for you; it's almost exclusively recommended for rogues and others who deal precision-based damage. At 6th level with a standard TWF Dagger build, you'd be doing 6d6 + 2d4 + STR and enchantment bonuses, vs 4d6 + STR and enchantment for a feinting Rapier-wielder, for instance. Staying mobile will not increase your damage output. There's just no way that it does, because you're not hitting anything while dancing out of danger. You're using your actions to avoid combat, instead of using your actions to make the combat end more quickly. Given the number of CR 6 creatures and encounters that can reasonably be expected to do 30+ damage in a full attack, staying mobile is folly anyway, when a single full attack action still puts you out of commission. Better to splat them before you get splatted. For feats besides the TWF line and Craven, consider Telling Blow.
#9 prince_of_parkness Jun 15, 2009 6:57:50	First the -4 to ac is to represent the +4 AC of the mithril shirt being converted to 2DR/2dmg subdual as a homerule. Okay. Not too sure how much of a good idea that is, but sure. Second, Why is Feinting not recommended? I get a sneak attack next turn. Lets coimpare it to a flanking full attack: 1. No guarantee of SA. Its an opposed skill checks and the enemy can add thier BAB. The odds are stacked in your favour if the opponent has no ranks in sense motive, but if they do then your the chances of you getting SA drop, fast. 2. Requires two feats. 3. Limits you to 1 attack per round with no mobility. These disadvantages cannot be made up for by the fact that you don't take -2 to attack rolls and that you can do it on your own, Any books that you know of that would be useful? I'm familiar with Complete Scoundrel, Complete Adventurer, Races of the Wild, PH II, etc but i want to know if there are any really good feats that i can get that will help me with my dmg or in combat. Champions of ruin has craven. Consider using fey craft weapons from PHII and then retraining weapon finesse. Also, Two Weapon fighting sucks for me because i only get ot attack with both weapons if i'm doing a full attack, and being a lvl 6, 30HP creature with 15 AC is not exactly the best of idea. I need to stay mobile. There are some ways around this. 1. Take the feat that allows an attack with each weapon as a standard action. Dual strike or something. 2. Dip into the cleric class and grab travel devotion as a feat from complete champion. 3.One is to retrain some of your levels as a rogue to a scout and then take the swift ambusher feat to make one attack per round that adds skirmish and SA. Good in combination with spring attack. Edit: What ever your build, a 1 level dip into the swordsage class is always a valid option. Take island of blades to help flank and grab some good counters and boosts such as counter charge and cloak of deception. Also, it allows you to spend a feat on shadow blade.
#10 gyrcion Jun 16, 2009 1:28:37	Thanks so much both of you but i don't think the TWF, ITWF, Dual Strike is a good option since if i do that at lvl 6 i won't have Weapon Finesse and my attack would be almost a flat roll because i'm forced to attack with a -4 and my offhand to get both attacks. At lvl 6 my one handed Melee attack bonus is +5, subtract like 1 or 2 for using two weapons and another 4 and its pretty much a flat roll. Not only that look at the skill tricks i have. Manipulation Skill Tricks Hidden Blade - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 87) • Sleight of Hand 5 ranks, Quick Draw • Draw hidden weapon as move action; treat foe as flat-footed Mosquito's Bite - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 87) • (Purchased with Sure Hand) • Flat-footed target does not notice damage you deal with a light weapon Shrouded Dance - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 89) • (Purchased With Sure Hand) • Use move action to gain concealment for 1 round Sudden Draw - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 89-90) • Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Quick Draw • Draw hidden weapon as part of attack of opportunity Movement Skill Tricks Extreme Leap - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 86) • Jump 5 ranks • Horizontal jump of at least 10 feet allows 10 extra feet of movement that round Speedy Ascent - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 89) • Climb 5 ranks • Climb roll = feet climbed Feats Sure Hand - (Complete Scoundrel, Page 81) • Benefit: Learn two manipulation skill tricks and increase skill trick limit by one If i don't got quick draw i can't get hidden blade and sudden draw to be eligable for Sure hand that lets me get Mosquito's bite and Shrouded Dance. Perhaps rapidshot is a better option...
#11 innabinder Jun 16, 2009 9:56:54	None of those skill tricks increase damage in combat (the concern you had to begin the thread). If dancing around in combat is what you want to do instead of damage, they'll work fine. If you're using a light weapon, and TWF, where are you getting your additional -4 penalty from? Did you not mention a houserule, or did you misread TWF? Two-Weapon Fighting [General] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon. Prerequisite Dex 15. Benefit Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack. Normal If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) Dual Strike is for later consideration; Weapon Finesse in addition to TWF and your BAB concerns are negated, along with many of your damage output issues.
#12 Mad_Jack Jun 16, 2009 21:27:48	Dual Strike is for later consideration; Weapon Finesse in addition to TWF and your BAB concerns are negated, along with many of your damage output issues. Agreed. Weapon Finesse and TWF are essentially the basis for any serious combat rogue in 3.5 - you're now hitting almost as well as the party fighter and doing just as much damage when you get your SA... If you're using a light weapon in your off-hand, you're only at a -2 for each attack. If you're flanking somebody, that cancels out the -2. If you want combat mobility, max out your Jump and Tumble skills. The DC to Tumble past an opponent without incurring an opportunity attack is only a 15! With an 18 DEX (+4 ab bonus) and 5 ranks in Jump for the +2 synergy bonus, a 6th level rogue can basically have a Tumble of +15 after all the modifiers - you automatically tumble past one opponent. At -2 for each additional opponent beyond the first, you have a good chance of being able to tumble past three or even four opponents before it's not worth the risk. Tumbling into a position to set up your Sneak Attack is a basic rogue tactic - tumble into position, SA for one attack, next turn full attack for all your glorious TWF fun, then the next turn either do one attack and tumble away or tumble to the next guy and start the process all over.
#13 gyrcion Jun 18, 2009 18:45:33	None of those skill tricks increase damage in combat (the concern you had to begin the thread). If dancing around in combat is what you want to do instead of damage, they'll work fine. If you're using a light weapon, and TWF, where are you getting your additional -4 penalty from? Did you not mention a houserule, or did you misread TWF? Dual Strike is for later consideration; Weapon Finesse in addition to TWF and your BAB concerns are negated, along with many of your damage output issues. Heres the problem. With TWF i can't get a second attack unless i'm doing a full attack. I'm a halfling so i can only sneak 20 max at a -10, 15 feet at -5. If i position myself to take them by surprise i can still only get one attack. I have to spend feats to get Dual Strike anyways. Even if i DO get a full attack in do i get to use both of my attacks as sneak attack? Ignore the -4, its a homerule thing, and -4 to my AC to represent armor not used to increase my AC but to give me damage reduction and subdual dmg instead. I want those skill tricks because it will give me the ability to sneak attack more often. If you want combat mobility, max out your Jump and Tumble skills. The DC to Tumble past an opponent without incurring an opportunity attack is only a 15! With an 18 DEX (+4 ab bonus) and 5 ranks in Jump for the +2 synergy bonus, a 6th level rogue can basically have a Tumble of +15 after all the modifiers - you automatically tumble past one opponent. At -2 for each additional opponent beyond the first, you have a good chance of being able to tumble past three or even four opponents before it's not worth the risk. Tumbling into a position to set up your Sneak Attack is a basic rogue tactic - tumble into position, SA for one attack, next turn full attack for all your glorious TWF fun, then the next turn either do one attack and tumble away or tumble to the next guy and start the process all over. Heres the thing, you can't tumble behind an opponent and sneak attack them from behind. They aren't flatfooted, flanked or lose their dex to AC. Whats the point of spending a full turn doing nearly no damage, getting attacked afterwards and swinging a little baby dagger/sword at them doing nearly no damage when i can just consistenly sneak attack nearly every turn if i'm smart. And even if i do manage to get behind them, whats keeping the monster from just turning around to kill the tiny little annoying halfling thing. I realize you guys are trying to help but my DM won't let me sneak attack someone just because their backs are turned and Two Weapon fighting really only seems useful if you can survive in melee (I'm lvl 6 and have 30 hitpoints, 15 ac, and the monsters we fight are tough) I think what i will do is at 9th level i'll get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Barbed Dagger. It adds +2 dmg per damage roll (including sneak attacks) as long as i have 5 ranks in sleight of hand.
#14 Mad_Jack Jun 18, 2009 20:44:22	Using stealth in combat to get your Sneak attack is very hard to do - often impossible after the first turn. The easiest way to do that is by sniping from cover, which requires alternating between attacking and making Hide checks. Using feats, feinting or skill tricks to manufacture Sneak Attack opportunities is only partially effective, because you either require setting up specific circumstances in combat or you run out of tricks (as most of them can only be used once per fight). The most consistent way to achieve Sneak Attack in melee combat is by flanking - the easiest way to achieve flanking is by tumbling into position. Rogues often need to put themselves in situations others would consider too risky in order to be fully effective. If you're in melee combat, you're going to get attacked. It's just the reality of the situation. No matter what you do, your opponent will get to take a swing at you between this turn and your next one if you're within his threatened area. However, tumbling into a flanking position to get your SA or tumbling away from an opponent will prevent them from getting another shot at you. The main source of a rogue's damage is from Sneak Attack dice, not really their weapon's damage die. Thus, rogues aren't built to do consistent damage every round. They do their damage in bursts. They need to set up their shots, so it's often better to take a turn getting into a more advantageous position than making an attack without an SA. Taking a turn to position yourself into a flanking situation and then using a full-attack (and yes, you do get your SA on all attacks in a round that qualify for it) will net you more damage in the end than just trying to attack every round. If the fighter's doing 10 points of damage each round, and you do 30 points of damage every three rounds, you're still doing the same amount of damage in the same amount of time. Also, moving in to get a few attacks and then moving out of range again will, over the course of an entire combat, result in you getting attacked less often overall.