Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 4:53:21	I am currently a player in a D&D game that is scheduled to be run on every other Saturday night, and has been scheduled so for near 7 months. It might not be necessary, but I feel it is important to mention that a different GM is running a non-D&D game on the Saturdays that are not scheduled for D&D, and that I have run a game of one variety or another every Friday night since joining this particular gaming group about 4 years ago. So, when it comes to it that our scheduled Saturday D&D game has happened considerably less often than it was supposed to - having only happened 6 or 7 of the 14 or 15 times that it was scheduled - when would you, as a player, say "Hey DM, I think it's time we just call that game of yours off so we can all actually do something with our Saturday nights."? Chime in as a DM if you wish - I know that as a DM myself I am completely surprised by the fact that this DM has not said "I don't really have the time/desire/ability/or whatever to keep this schedule." And the behaviors that I have seen in this DM lead me to believe that he not only doesn't want to be a DM, but he doesn't much care for gaming in general - which is fine, so long as he stops stringing the rest of us along to waste or time with it. The DM works just about every Saturday, but will stay up late on Friday nights playing video games and not get a decent amount of sleep... so he is always very tired when he should be getting the game together. Quite a few times (every time the game has ever not happened except for one) this DM will even get off work, ask one of us (the players) to pick him up from work, and then sit around at the location where we game for some time (at least one hour, and a few times as long as three hours) before asking for a ride home because he is too tired to run the game and/or didn't actually plan anything. Not to mention the less disturbing, but more personally upsetting, behavior this DM has where he will say something to the effect of "So I get off work early, and was thinking we could get together and start the game around 7 o'clock," which we (the players) will all always agree to - and then when the very last one of us has arrived... he then starts to plan out what we are going to do that session, despite having been sitting there for hours while waiting for us all to show up. When we all agreed to try seeing what happens if we showed up later, giving him even more time to prepare before we are all sitting around the table silent in waiting for him, and we got a very clear result - he didn't start planning until we all arrived, and when he completed his preparations declared it too late to have a good session and asked for a ride home. So yeah... how much of that would you put up with for how long? I am tired of it, but I can't seem to convince the other players that we all should call the DM on his behavior and bring an end to the game (lack thereof, more accurately) so that we can either a) be honest that we have absolutely nothing going on every other Saturday, or b) schedule a different game under a different DM that will actually reliably run the game to fill that time.
#2 unsocialentity Jun 01, 2009 5:32:49	Once I find myself dreading showing up to a game, I know it's time to quit. D&D is supposed to be a fun hobby, so why show up if you're not enjoying it? Well you've bluntly said you're tired of it... so quit. If the other players aren't sick enough of it to quit, there's not much you can do about that. Just go out and do something else on your Saturdays. You didn't fully explain why you haven't quit, even though you say you want to... is it because you'd rather have a crappy game on Saturday than no game at all? If so you can't really complain, you're choosing to put up with it.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 5:44:31	You didn't fully explain why you haven't quit, even though you say you want to... is it because you'd rather have a crappy game on Saturday than no game at all? If so you can't really complain, you're choosing to put up with it. You are right, I didn't manage to fully explain why I haven't quit yet even though I want to... it's not because I would rather a crappy game than no game though. The other players in the game are, basically, my only friends in town and my girlfriend. Because of those details, I would be spending my Saturday night alone if they were to continue the game after I quit - or, worse, I could end up being the reason that the game finally officially ends... which the other players are not to the point of wanting to have happen (that assumes that the DM would decide that my quitting the game was a valid reason to call off the game)... and the other possible outcome that comes to mind is my girlfriend quitting with me, even though she doesn't really want to give up on it yet, because she decides not to game without me - which makes the game ending more likely. I basically haven't quit because I do not want to be the one "blamed" for the game being over by the people that aren't ready to call it quits. Hopefully that makes any amount of sense.
#4 silent_stone Jun 01, 2009 5:58:12	Situations like these, which deal with the RL social aspects of gaming, really aren't my forte, but here is an alternative option: Next time the DM decides to be too tired to game (or whatever), just bring this suggestion up to the group: "Well, DM, if you're not ready to game, do you mind if we just slap some throwaway characters together and play around with the system for an encounter or two? Just to try out new character builds/stuff from that new book that came out/unconventional party builds/whatever, and we'll go back to your game next week?" Let it be a stealth takeover—and not necessarily with you as the new DM, either. This isn't a coup or a mutiny—if he thinks it's that, just assure him it's just that you like playing, and you'd like something to do on game nights when his job has him beat down. Maybe someone else would like to try their hand at the DM's seat without the pressure of handling it week after week. Trade off. Go to a revolving DM kind of setup. Take the pressure off the current DM, so if he wants to, he can either get himself back into the game, or step aside gracefully.
#5 rambaldi Jun 01, 2009 6:02:08	Have you tried talking to the DM about it? Maybe it hasn't crossed his mind to prep earlier, it may seem pretty obvious but I know on occaision I had to prep the session at the start. I keep 3 dragon Ante and Inn Fighting around for just that occaision
#6 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 6:24:43	Next time the DM decides to be too tired to game (or whatever), just bring this suggestion up to the group: "Well, DM, if you're not ready to game, do you mind if we just slap some throwaway characters together and play around with the system for an encounter or two? Just to try out new character builds/stuff from that new book that came out/unconventional party builds/whatever, and we'll go back to your game next week?" Let it be a stealth takeover—and not necessarily with you as the new DM, either. This isn't a coup or a mutiny—if he thinks it's that, just assure him it's just that you like playing, and you'd like something to do on game nights when his job has him beat down. Maybe someone else would like to try their hand at the DM's seat without the pressure of handling it week after week. Trade off. Go to a revolving DM kind of setup. Take the pressure off the current DM, so if he wants to, he can either get himself back into the game, or step aside gracefully. I have tried this in the past - and to a point it works, but not very well. My group is full of players, meaning that DMs (or people willing to try it out) are exceedingly rare. ...and we have more than one player that will object, either on the grounds that they don't want to do anything that could possibly result in a "take over" - which stops any new games being thrown together, or on the grounds that "we just did that" - which stops any games that normally run on a different night from happening an extra day that week. If we could have come up with something to do as a backup plan - I probably wouldn't be as frustrated as I am.
#7 zeratulcraft Jun 01, 2009 6:32:54	Just tell him it's **** (poopy) of him to put no time into the game unless he's wasting other peoples time to do it.
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 6:35:07	Have you tried talking to the DM about it? Maybe it hasn't crossed his mind to prep earlier, it may seem pretty obvious but I know on occaision I had to prep the session at the start. I keep 3 dragon Ante and Inn Fighting around for just that occaision I have not personally talked to him about it any more than asking "Are you going to run your game this Saturday? I was really bummed when it didn't happen the last time you were supposed to run it, I've been having a lot of fun when it does happen though." As far as what crosses his mind, I really have no idea. The last time he was supposed to run his game though, other players had been talking with him throughout the week to make sure he was going to run the game (which I am thankful for, as it did help once) and he apparently told them that he was "looking forward to it because he felt bad that it didn't run the last time it was supposed to, and he had everything all planned out for a session and it should be really cool," and then proceeded to show up on Saturday, and sit down for almost 2.5 hours perusing the monster manual very casually before announcing that he was ready to begin - and there was absolutely no combat in the entire session... which, I'll admit, was probably due to the fact that he counted the 2.5 hours he sat there prepping for the game against the 4 session limit he has set... In the past we have tried doing other things while waiting for him to say that he is ready... and he won't. We have to either sit there at the table doing nothing with our dice in front of us, or he assumes that we aren't interested in playing his game and will instead just watch us, or join in, as we do whatever it was we were doing in waiting. ...which is a large part of why I say that I don't think he even wants to be playing, let alone DMing.
#9 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 6:37:59	Just tell him it's **** (poopy) of him to put no time into the game unless he's wasting other peoples time to do it. I wish I could get away with that, but I know my girlfriend would give me "the look," for a good long time for it... not that it wouldn't be worth it, if I managed to get a result on the whole doing something on Saturday night front...
#10 silent_stone Jun 01, 2009 6:45:09	Yeah, I think getting adversarial about it will only make this situation grow a lot worse, possibly burning bridges you'd rather keep. I hate to give the easy answer ("just walk"), but I fear this situation is just going to keep spiraling downwards. And why does it seem no one wants to be the DM, ever? I've noticed this among my own group (and, indeed, a little bit in myself, at times), but come on: being the DM is half the game.
#11 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 7:05:10	And why does it seem no one wants to be the DM, ever? I can actually answer as to why each of my group members do not want to be a DM, because I ask them why when The answer my suggestions that they could run a game with "No, I can't." My girlfriend says she "can't" DM because she has trouble remembering all of the stuff that she needs to, and that trying to use notes to help her remember makes her feel like she is letting everyone down with how long it takes for her to move from one thing to the next - and on top of that she gets frustrated with the rules portion of things because all of the people we play with have an easier time remembering them than she does. One guy in the group says that he is too lazy to DM, and that he is not creative enough to make up a campaign that wasn't just a rip-off of a fantasy novel he has read "so it's not even worth it." Another guy says that he doesn't want everyone to be paying that much attention to him that often. And our final two - the DM in question, and the guy that runs on the other every other Saturday - both say that it takes them a lot of time and effort to come up with a campaign... which, in the case of the DM whose game I am probably going to have to just quit and deal with whatever fall out from doing so, really seems like he means to say something more like Mr. "I'm lazy and not creative." In the case of the other guy though... he really does put a lot of time and effort into his games, for better or worse. They all end up being a bit rail road-y in delivery - he puts most of the time and effort into not just thinking up a good overall story idea and some antagonists, but also in writing up a laundry list of NPCs... Basically he writes a book, and then has us play through it - with the game grinding to a near halt if we start to deviate from what he thought we would be doing. Oh... and then there is the one guy that would willingly run games, but that we have kicked out of the group - who would run everything in that completely horrible "Players VS. DM" style... while biting on the style of a well built character, intentionally choosing enemies to target the party's weaknesses, and using massively difficult encounters for every last encounter... basically making every game feel the same - and be about as much fun as someone saying "okay, let's race to the grocery store - you can only walk, no jogging or anything like that... and I am taking my car because I can."
#12 zeratulcraft Jun 01, 2009 7:12:05	I wish I could get away with that, but I know my girlfriend would give me "the look," for a good long time for it... not that it wouldn't be worth it, if I managed to get a result on the whole doing something on Saturday night front... If it's worth it, do it. Moderating yourself for the sake of others is a sure fire way to really not enjoy existence. It may start small, but watch as it continues. This guys is narking on your fun, stop him. Point out to him how gorram rude it is to do what he's doing. Hell, do it back to him, post stories here, I'll have a giggle, and all will be well in the world.
#13 thegreaterbad Jun 01, 2009 7:15:50	I've had to quit a handful of games over the years. The easiest way to tell when you should quit the game is when you're not having fun or it feels like a chore. That goes for both DMing and playing. If your not having fun, you're not going to put the same effort into it. I think your GM is definitely showing the signs of not having fun. It sucks, I've been there. It happens to every GM eventually. Be it from real life issues or simply that you're sick of doing it. I like Silent_Stone's suggestion of taking a break from his campaign and trying something different. Either way, I would talk to him and be upfront about your feelings on the matter. I would ask him about if he's tired of GMing and offer an alternative. It doesn't even have to be d&d, you guys could play board games or something. Gaming is about having fun and no one is having fun if you're sitting there for over two hours. Talk to the other players, get their opinions. Don't think of this as an issue between the GM and the players. It's a concern for a group of friends. It's important to remember that too. Silent_Stone, as for the lack of GMs. I think its a mixture of a few things. First, and I think the prominently, is that people don't think they're creative enough for it. With a little help, most people can get the hang of encounter and story design. Second, people think that from a rules end, its a lot harder to GM and for some games its true (GURPS, I'm looking at you), but for most games involving a d20 its too much harder than playing a character. Finally, for most people the reward is in being a player. GMs don't get treasure, they get to give treasure.
#14 silent_stone Jun 01, 2009 7:16:37	That seems to be the usual list of "reasons why people don't DM." Don't think I'm being dismissive here; I sympathize with your situation. I also sympathize with them—being a DM is a considerable amount of pressure, for something that's just a game. I'm okay with DMing, personally, but there are still times when that pressure gets to me. Bad. Unfortunately, I'm out of intelligent advice...Hopefully this will end well for you and your group. EDIT: And TheGreaterBad, who posted as I was writing this post, I agree—but it's a shame it has to be that way.
#15 gargs454 Jun 01, 2009 7:56:42	One possible solution would be to consider going the LFR route as a backup for when the DM can't game, or when he doesn't have anything planned. The good things about LFR are a) they are in large part one-shot adventures which avoids the appearance of trying to take over the time slot permanently b) everything is already written, planned, etc. so it makes DM'ing a lot easier and c) its easy to swap new characters in and out so that you can have rotating DMs and/or try out different character types -- remember you can now run in the same adventure more than once, you just need to use a different character (likewise DM's can play in an adventure they have already DM'd). If that doesn't work, and talking to the rest of the players doesn't work, then really you are stuck with either quitting or just showing up for the conversation and/or beer. Unfortunately, this is one of the good and bad things about gaming. Typically, we do it with our friends which makes it more fun, but when the game goes bad, it makes it hard to walk away. At times, it can be refreshing to be in a group with people you don't really know as it gives you the freedom to walk away without many problems.
#16 rambaldi Jun 01, 2009 8:16:29	Does the guy even have his own copies of the MMs required? To get one of the other guys to DM, particularly the guy that thinks he isn't creative enough, try encouraging him to run a prepublished module, even if it is just a free one like Keep of the Shadowfell. Sometimes all it takes is a couple weeks of not having to worry about DMing etc. and the DM will be revitalised.
#17 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 8:24:51	Does the guy even have his own copies of the MMs required? This guy has never invested any money of his own into gaming - at least not that I have ever been told of. He does, however, have access to all of the necessary books given that our group has multiple copies of everything (I myself own 2 copies of the core set and a few supplements)... which he has never asked to borrow of course, but does have many occasions while at our typically gaming location to take them off the shelf and do his planning - besides when we are all actually there to game. It's most common though for him to be found reading any gaming book that has absolutely nothing to do with any game that he has volunteered himself to run. To get one of the other guys to DM, particularly the guy that thinks he isn't creative enough, try encouraging him to run a prepublished module, even if it is just a free one like Keep of the Shadowfell. Sometimes all it takes is a couple weeks of not having to worry about DMing etc. and the DM will be revitalised. I have tried to get people to use published modules... and even ran a few myself just to prove to them that it works. The "best" result I have gotten in those efforts however - a player bought a module that sounded interesting so that I could run it for him.
#18 mellored Jun 01, 2009 9:34:27	Sounds like you need a new DM. You seem to have willing players, so you should try and keep them. And since all(most?) of you there to play, then you should play. Next time, come prepared with a one shot (dungeon delves should work good), and play it while he's prepping the main campaign. Bring pre-made chars too, so you can jump right in. It will be a good chance to try out classes/races that your group hasn't played yet. Switch who get's to run the monsters, and see if anyone else in the group likes DMing. Let your DM join if he wants, or if he finishes prepping stop the battle and switch to his campaign. If someone else likes DMing, then suggest a switch, if your DM insist on running his campaign, then tell him to be ready when you get there.
#19 oxybe Jun 01, 2009 11:45:24	well, if the D&D game is your social even for the saturday... why have to cancel even if the DM can't make it? if all my group can make it but the GM, we just play something else... Carcasonne, Settlers of Catan, Descent, Doom, M:tG, ect... we still hang out, we just don't play D&D that night.
#20 CCS Jun 01, 2009 13:11:47	So you can't get the other players to agree, so what? If you're tired of the poorly prepped "non-game" just quit on your own..... Then you'll know that you at least have every other Sat free. And if the others stick it out? Well, that's their problem.
#21 CCS Jun 01, 2009 13:22:34	You are right, I didn't manage to fully explain why I haven't quit yet even though I want to... it's not because I would rather a crappy game than no game though. The other players in the game are, basically, my only friends in town and my girlfriend. Because of those details, I would be spending my Saturday night alone if they were to continue the game after I quit - or, worse, I could end up being the reason that the game finally officially ends... which the other players are not to the point of wanting to have happen (that assumes that the DM would decide that my quitting the game was a valid reason to call off the game)... and the other possible outcome that comes to mind is my girlfriend quitting with me, even though she doesn't really want to give up on it yet, because she decides not to game without me - which makes the game ending more likely. I basically haven't quit because I do not want to be the one "blamed" for the game being over by the people that aren't ready to call it quits. Hopefully that makes any amount of sense. I still say you should quit. But, if you feel you must stay in this game for whatever reason, make sure to bring something else (for the group) to do for when it doesn't run. For ex; there's all kinds of board games out there. Some are quite involved & can easily take a couple of hours. Others are much quicker & only take 45m or so. The latter make perfect "filler" games to play while you wait for people to arrive (or in your case while the DM preps). And some, like Tomb & Decent, are so heavily based on D&D that it's almost like playing D&D itself....
#22 Tzepish Jun 01, 2009 13:44:22	I try to schedule a game for every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The reason I attempt so much is because the scheduling failures far out-number the successes... Attempting three sessions a week, I usually succeed in actually playing one session per month, thanks to everyone's varied schedules. No one loses any nights though, because I check with everyone beforehand. Usually around Tuesday or so, I just send a text message to all of my players asking what days they can play this weekend. Once they have all answered, if there is a time where they are all available (usually there isn't), then I send them all a text message saying "DnD on Friday, after 7:00pm" or whatever the time was. From then on it's locked in, and they may do whatever they want with the rest of their weekend. If there is no time when they are all available (far more often), I'll send a text to them all that says "no DnD this weekend", and they are all free to schedule whatever they want for their weekends.
#23 Sabin_Stargem Jun 01, 2009 15:44:20	I think it would be best for you to DM a few sessions yourself. At least you would then be able to play. While it seems mean to do this in the light of already having a DM, the fact is that he is being a jerk to you and the other players. DMs are meant to regulate and conduct games, but your DM keeps putting off the players to read unrelated material. :embarrass When it comes down to it, your DM is disappointing you and the others without a good reason. At this point, you should either quit or become a DM yourself, because the game is dying. It just hasn't fully realized this, so it comes down to the players to rejuvenate the game. I suggest starting with Scales of War or the H-E adventure modules, so your party can have many adventures that takes them from level 1 to 30. In the process, you could gradually have other players DM for a session, so they get a feel of how it works. The idea is to make them not just players, but also Dungeon Masters. In doing so, you could create a stable of DMs to choose from, which makes it much easier to carry your game forward. Granted, they may feel that they are inadequate...but to be honest, DMing isn't that hard, it is just the feeling of incompetence that can prevent budding DMs from blooming, so you have to nourish them. I am a guy who has played only 7 sessions in my life, and 4 of them were in the role of DM. Considering that I am an socially unskilled person who wasn't familiar with the material, I did okay. Your players have been playing much longer than I have, and would be able to do it much easier. The deck is stacked in your favor, you just have to be willing to understand it and work through the issues.
#24 Grimbus Jun 01, 2009 16:12:40	Preparing games takes a lot of time and I have sympathy with your DM. It is very easy to say "My DM is not very good," but with no-one else willing to step up to the plate, you're stuck. Sharing the DM duties between the group might be the best solution. DMing reallly isn't that difficult, it's just a case of taking it slowly at first and maybe use a published adventure to start with. Maybe the DM and a player could work together on an adventure and run it together - that way someone else learns how to do it. Alternatively schedule a D&D game every 2 weeks. This takes the pressure off the DM to produce weekly material and allows you the 1st and 3rd Saturday to do other things. Maybe invest in a couple of decent fantasy board games - not sure of your group size - so that if the DM is tired you get a gaming fix without all the prep. Or check your local gaming store/use these forums to find a new DM
#25 Krusk Jun 01, 2009 16:43:56	I bring small easy to carry card games when I know I am going to a session run by an unreliable, or new DM. (I usually give unreliable DMs 2 or 3 test sessions in case one is a fluke) This way if I show up, and the DM is late/totally unprepared I can bring them out and play. I recomend Fluxx as an easy cheap one. If you are worried about the DM joining in instead of prepping, bring a DS or laptop and game on that. He can't join in, and you are still not bored. Additionally, you could consider starting a series of one shots with obscure quick systems. Normally you play DND, so fantasy. Bring some super hero, space, or sci fi easy quick games and run them. Refuse to have plot span multiple sessions. I recomend PARANOIA. You need at most one rulebook and a d20, but really the game can be summed up as "Roll a d20, if it is highish you might live if it is lowish time for your next clone" and a rulebook will quickly become un-needed. Best part is no rolling up characters (By most DMs ive played it under, and myself when I run it) so there is no time spent on that. Which is great for one shots. If the DM asks to join simply say "Actually I was hoping to do this while you planned a session for next week so that your game actually happens. This was just to keep us from getting bored sitting here or 4 hours." I think I would just though quit.
#26 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 01, 2009 19:04:50	Preparing games takes a lot of time and I have sympathy with your DM. It is very easy to say "My DM is not very good," but with no-one else willing to step up to the plate, you're stuck. I know that it is easy to say "My DM is not very good." I also know what it takes to prepare a game. The only problems I have, or rather the only reasons that I say this DM is not very good, are that 1) Does not keep to the schedule he has set for his own game, 2) Does not change the schedule to something he can keep to when asked to do so, instead responding that he "will be able to keep it every other week from now on," and failing to do so, and 3) Does not share the information as to whether or not he is going to run the game until everyone has already not just made plans to be there, but is actually physically there waiting for the game - that he has also shown up for, and still isn't running. I get that, for some people, planning out a campaign is difficult - that is fine, but I, as a long time DM myself, ask that they be honest about what they can and cannot handle. I can, and do, run 3 games a week successfully (meaning I don't have sessions not happen because of lack of preparation, and all players involved enjoy the game) and can throw together a 1-shot with less than an hour to prep - so I am fully capable and ready to pick up any nights that another DM doesn't have something together for... Like I said earlier though, some of my group members - most notably the guy whose house this game is hosted at - refuse to let me run anything on Saturdays that this DM doesn't run his game, saying that they don't want to stop trying to have this guys D&D game happen (and apparently believing that If anyone runs so much as a one shot that the game will be guaranteed to end at that point.) Thanks to all of you for sharing your ideas, it is nice to see that my thoughts are shared by a lot of you. It seems that I will have to just quit at some point. The next time that the game doesn't happen and I don't get prior warning that it isn't happening, I'm going to quit - that way I don't end up just quitting and missing out on it if the DM finally starts running regularly. I am just too tired of not being sure what I am doing on Saturday night, and having to wait until 8-10PM just to start trying to figure it out.
#27 kuonji Jun 01, 2009 19:06:06	When do I call it quits: When "Oh, it's game night!" becomes "Oh, I have to game tonight". Game night should be something to look forward to, not a chore that you have to perform. I killed a game once by quitting. It wasn't my intention to end the game, but that's how it worked out. At the end of one session, I told the DM the truth: I just wasn't having that much fun and was going to bow out for the rest of the campaign. My saying that opened the floodgates, the other players also said they weren't enjoying the game all that much and even the DM admitted he wasn't really that into it (which is probably why it wasn't that fun despite having a good DM). In the end we picked another game and proceeded to have much enjoyment. If you decide to leave, I would suggest speaking with the DM before the next session and let him know that you are dropping out of the game. Be honest as to why you are leaving and be sure to let him know what aspects of the game you did enjoy in addition to the reasons why you are leaving. If you want to stay in the game, I strongly urge you to sit down with your DM and explain that you are not having fun. Give your reasons why and be specific about each issue. Again, be sure to point out what you do enjoy in addition to what problems you have. Perhaps this can be an opportunity to create a more open gaming group where you are all willing to offer and accept criticism.
#28 mock26 Jun 01, 2009 20:36:58	Ask yourself a very simple question: "Would I rather play D&D with Group A or would I rather do something else." If the answer is "something else" then it is time to leave the group. You do not have to tell the DM to cancel the group, though. You can simply choose to leave.
#29 Dralenan Jun 02, 2009 2:19:58	Hmm...I'd just leave the group if it wasn't working out. And it doesn't seem to be working out. Then if the DM and other players still want to keep going sporadically, fine. If the other players feel the same, they should also drop out. Without players, the game is effectively done. I don't see why you shouldn't be upfront and explain exactly why you want to leave the game, or leave the option of rejoining a game in the future. Just say that if he is not going to work with everyone's schedules, you don't want to keep going.
#30 Yruc Jun 02, 2009 5:36:43	if your DM doesn't have time, then as a group invest in one of the premade module books. They aren't the greatest / worst things out there and the prep time for them i pretty low as it provides all the character (NPC) stats / abilities etc. You guys do anything outside the game? If not then try mixing it up on a game night. Maybe bring movies / go out to the movies / bar / dinner / cook out / do board games / card games etc.. So play D&D 3 times then on the 4th time pick a different activity...
#31 panosl Jun 02, 2009 11:55:19	Sounds like a terrible DM. Why do you need him again? Have you ever even played any games with him? Are they even fun? Honestly I bet you or anybody in your group could do a much better job of it than him. If you 'fear' a take over or want to play just let everybody DM every week on a rotation like system or anybody who's interested that way everybody gets to play and game a little. Contrary to popular belief being a DM isn't hard. Being a good DM is a bit trickier but considering your current competition it doesn't sound too difficult at all. Just do it yourself or get somebody else in the group to do it and if your current DM doesn't like it just ask him if he has something else for you to run through. If he doesn't ( I almost get a horrible feeling he'd just ask to take the material you've made and run through that as his own- dont let him;p) then continue doing it your way and having fun. If he can't be bothered then screw him?
#32 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 02, 2009 17:25:58	Sounds like a terrible DM. Why do you need him again? I like to be able to be a player sometimes, and not DM 100% of the time. Have you ever even played any games with him? Are they even fun? Yes, I have - as I stated earlier. The sessions he has run are quite enjoyable... though I believe 95% of that to be the player dynamic. The group of players can spend an entire 6 hours of game just playing our characters sitting in a bar planning out their next move, and enjoy the hell out of it... which just adds fuel to the fire of my rage that so many sessions didn't happen when all the DM is really contributing is little things like an NPC walking up to refill our drinks and share some info, or having us notice creatures so that we can decide whether or not to battle them... Honestly I bet you or anybody in your group could do a much better job of it than him. If you 'fear' a take over or want to play just let everybody DM every week on a rotation like system or anybody who's interested that way everybody gets to play and game a little. Contrary to popular belief being a DM isn't hard. Being a good DM is a bit trickier but considering your current competition it doesn't sound too difficult at all. Just do it yourself or get somebody else in the group to do it and if your current DM doesn't like it just ask him if he has something else for you to run through. If he doesn't ( I almost get a horrible feeling he'd just ask to take the material you've made and run through that as his own- dont let him;p) then continue doing it your way and having fun. If he can't be bothered then screw him? Most of this bit makes it seem that you have not really read all of what I have said in the thread. Some facts you appear to have missed are: 1 - I am the regular DM. This guy is a player that decided to run a game, and has been mucking it up the whole time. 2 - It's not the DM resisting us moving on to a different game. It is all of the players except for me wanting to keep trying to coax the game out of this guy for reasons ranging from really enjoying their character (and inexplicably prefering to keep trying to play it in a game that doesn't happen, instead of taking that character to a new game that will allow them to play the character on a reliable basis) to insisting that we must have at least one game of D&D going (despite the player having fun in the other non-D&D games we play. We apparently just aren't allowed to ever actually take a break from D&D... and I am not ready to un-shelf my own D&D game because Divine Power isn't out, and the party's cleric player is very obnoxiously whining that he doesn't want to proceed to Paragon tier because he doesn't have a paragon path that fits perfectly... and the group as a whole refuses to allow me to start a different game of D&D because they want to see one game through to 30th level and are going to near stiffle all of my creativity my trying to force me into the bounds of a single story in their attempts to see that goal realized.) and 3 - no one else in the group is interested in being a DM, not even once, not for a little bit, not on rotation, not in a million years. Otherwise you have some very sound advice... that would work for sure if I were dealing with a group of people that get together for the sole purpose of gaming, and not a group of friends that like to game... apparently good friends would rather be bored on Saturday night than have to tell a friend "Hey, your game is not working out." ...evident by all of them looking at me like I am some kind of jerk when I suggest that course of action...
#33 panosl Jun 02, 2009 20:40:11	Yeah my bad for skim reading the thread. Bad advice really:P Still fair enough then. Honestly if nobody wants to DM, they wont let you DM and the guy who is currently DM is unreliable/ can't build the game and just randomly lets the players create most of the content then just quit. It's obviously not fun for you anymore so why bother? Do something else I guess with or without them. No point wasting your precious free time being screwed around by the whims of some guy.
#34 ozymandiusj Jun 04, 2009 4:17:42	I’d recommend, when everybody is present, just sitting around, to have the honest conversation and be as non-confrontational as possible. You seem to have a solid insight on what you find is lacking from the experience, just be honest and cool about it—“Guys, I see this problem, and I don’t have a solid answer on how to solve it. I’ve thought about quitting but I don’t want to do that. Any thoughts on what we can do here?” Just basically start a conversation in a very…well…conversational tone, very open and even-tempered. Encourage everybody to be honest about where they’re coming from, and use all the input to work towards a solution. You seem to have a real aversion to just quitting, and that’s fine. But if you’re not quitting, and you’re very upset, then you’re stuck being miserable unless something changes. A very open “here’s why I’m unhappy, can we change this” discussion might be the ticket.
#35 lemonfrosted_dup Jun 04, 2009 9:26:24	If the rest of the players won't allow even one-off adventures because of the fear of a takeover then it's a sign: in their gut they know the situation is a house of cards waiting for a stiff breeze. It's the same as you worrying that you stepping out willbring the whole thing crashing down. It's far more likely that it'll fall apart before it gets better, but no one wants to be the catalyst for dissolution, especially if there's still hope, false or otherwise, that it could get better.
#36 AbdulAlhazred Jun 05, 2009 14:29:18	I was going to say you should just show up prepared to run a game, but if you aren't wanting to DM than that one is out. Maybe your GF would like to try her hand? So why not have HER show up prepared to run something? Then when your problem DM decides he doesn't have anything to run/doesn't feel like DMing, etc then presto there is a game ready to go. Maybe this guy would just much rather PLAY as well, but just doesn't quite want to admit it to himself. If someone else runs a game and he and everyone else has fun, then that could be the nail in the coffin. It never has to "officially" end the old game. Maybe it ends up you just play the alternate game half the time. Eventually one or the other game will win out usually.
#37 CorrinAvatan Jun 06, 2009 23:20:32	Dude, I'm gonna cut to the chase here, because, tbh, I think people are pussyfooting the issue. What the $#%@! So he sits there for two hours looking stuff up... and then says, "G'night, give me a ride home?" Speaking as a DM, I would CANCEL the game for that week before wasting time of my players by looking something up (I don't mean I never have to look anything up, but I have my stuff planned out). You just need to man up and tell the DM "Hey, I know DMing is tough, but I really don't think it's fun that you don't have the stuff prepared for us to play before we get there." If he gives you the excuse that he is too busy during the week to prepare something, he should run modules, OR HE SHOULD NOT DM. As a DM (which I have been the DM of my group for basically three years straight), I spend 2-5 hours a week prepping stuff for my players. In the 4-6 hour sessions we have, maybe 30 minutes of that is me setting stuff up or looking something up for clarification in the rules. I understand what it is like to be busy, but there is a higher obligation of the DM to come prepared and to make sure people are having fun. From your posts, it's obvious that he is not. If you're afraid of hurting feelings, just ask him during the week directly, "Hey, you seem to have problems building our sessions, can you run us through the Dungeon Delve book?" Literally, it is a BOOK OF ENCOUNTERS. He needs to look up NOTHING. It tells him strategies and everything. If even THAT is too much for him, you should be able to say the following at the table: "Look, guys, I'm not sure how everyone else feels, but I feel frustrated that we drive here every saturday, ready to play, and then we sit for two hours doing nothing, and then I feel let down when we're told to pack up. What do you think we should do?" (side note: stating "I feel" instead of "you do" is less likely to cause confrontation, because you are only making an empathic statement, not an accusatory statement, that might help) IMO, your DM, as your describing him, sucks as a DM. I mean, inhales as vigorously as an Orek sucks. This is NOT fair to you. I say this as a DM who drives 20 miles back and forth from my games, with a tote full of every dungeon tile set released, a battallion of minis, DM screen, and a computer ready to load that week's session. That is on TOP of working 50 hour weeks during the summer, taking care of four nephews, two cats, and spending time with my wife. I make SURE that my players never have to wait on ME to get the game started.
#38 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 07, 2009 6:32:13	Good news this week - the DM not only was ready when he arrived, but ran a session that was quite enjoyable and brought us to 4th level (finally... if he had run every time he was supposed to, and given out the same general percentage of experience as he has been, we would be at least 9th level by now). So, for now, it seems he may have gotten his act together - guess we wait 2 weeks to see if he can pull it off twice in a row...
#39 fives Jun 07, 2009 9:50:06	here my 2 cents worth why not dm your self its a great way to keep a gaming session going and you can get a whole lot more out of a game than the players do. i have been told to keep the world very loose and basically let the players do what they want to do and then let the world react to them. it might just be my group but they tend to hate being railroaded into mission style encounters. the way we kept the group goals simmilar was to have them all from one family. dont let a game drag you down if your not enjoying it change it. if you do decide to make a world for your selves a good way to get other people involved is to ask them to write up part of the world sorry about spelling and gramma but what you see is what you get
#40 mock26 Jun 07, 2009 14:54:29	Sounds like a terrible DM. Why do you need him again? Have you ever even played any games with him? Are they even fun? If he is a truly horrible DM then he should be given the boot. But, if it is just a matter of him being horrible due to inexperience then I would say he should be given time to improve and get better.
#41 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 07, 2009 19:31:30	here my 2 cents worth why not dm your self... Please have the courtesy to at least read the thread you are responding to in the future. I have already talked about why it is that I don't just take over and DM... and I believe I mentioned the two other games I am already running every week also. If he is a truly horrible DM then he should be given the boot. But, if it is just a matter of him being horrible due to inexperience then I would say he should be given time to improve and get better. I wouldn't say he is truly horrible - when he actually sits down and the game happens: it's a damned good game. The only problems he has are 1) not as familiar with the rules of the game as half his players are (comes from not actually desiring to learn the rules) - this slows down the game, but only a little, as he can just ask those of us that know the rules really well for what the rule is and we can move on. and 2) he has not stuck to the schedule he set for his game (which I view as having to come from a complete lack of dependability or commitment) - which is my only real complaint.