A little background... We are all about 3rd level and progressing our way thru Slaghtergarde. Party Make-up: 2nd level Halfling Druid (almost to 3rd level), 3rd level Elf Beguiler, 3rd level Gray Elf Wizard (me), and a 3rd level Drow Rogue (still fighting his +2 LA more than the bad guys!). All of our characters have a measly +1 BAB and that really isn't helping our accuracy of attacks. The Drow is realizing how bad a +2 LA really hampers your survival in combat (low BAB, HP, and SAVES!). The Beguiler sneaks around and does the "stealthy" thing. I took the Noncombatant flaw out of UA and am currently at a -1 BAB in melee (whoo-hoo!). Our fun surprise combat monster is our Halfling Druid. He has twice as many HP as the rest of us and has been our bright-spot in the damage output arena (even using "small" weapons, he's definitely our "tank" of the moment).
Our group is much better at ranged combat (all of our dex scores are much better than anyone's str) and we try to fire off as many arrows/bolts as we can before our enemy closes into melee (usually a round or two at the most). None of us have Point Blank Shot and we are almost as likely to hit an ally than the bad guys when firing into melee.
Now when it comes to magical-assistance, we have our bases covered for the mostpart. We have two arcane casters (one prep, one spont) and one divine caster. This fact will help us out quite a bit once we reach higher levels, but it seems like we are using our spell slots to SURVIVE at this point rather than having extra slots for the occasional Magic Weapon/Bull's Strength spell or the like. I just picked up a 1st level pearl of power (and hope to get more asap), so that's a start.
Don't get me wrong, low levels are hard... really hard. But they should be! We are "fresh and new" characters that haven't been thru the countless battles more seasoned veterans have experienced. But in order to make it to the higher levels, you have to survive the present challenge at hand. I'm just looking for tips and advice to make sure we make it to the glory and prestige our group deserves! (without our DM killings us off in Slaghtergarde, which is a challenging campaign to say the least!).
I think that about sums it up. If any of you could post about your experiences/tips dealing with survival of a party without the "tank or meatshield" role, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Not foolproof, but it's a start.
The druid is going to get a nice damage spell when he reaches 3rd level (flaming sphere)
Give the animal companion armor und send him in first. He wont be as usefull as a real character, but if he dies the druid can just get another one. Character are much harder to get back
Generally you should let the companion tank while the druid and the wizard keep on blasting. Everbody gets a healing belt and an amulet of tears as soon as possible, so surviving wont be a big deal.
I dont really know beguilers, so I guess he will be standing around making total defense every round
The drow rogue should also consider this
In short, you shouldn't be doing that unless you are the Tank of the party. You should be focusing on shutting down the enemy's attack options and killing them through slow, meticulous damage.
A common strategy (YMMV) is to use spells such as Grease, Web, Entangle, and couple them with serious backup mundane damage from weapons and alchemical items and wands.
Look at the Character Optimization boards and the Handbooks for Druids, Clerics, and TreantMonk's Guide to Playing God (the Wizard handbook), and then search for effective melee builds like the Chain Tripper, Stormguard Warrior, and the Dungeon Crasher (all of which can be played using online content from WotC's site [even the Stormguard Warrior]), and then get a good skill monkey like a Factotum or Beguiler to take care of traps. Incarnates and Totemists (Magic of Incarnum) make excellent all-around types, and so do Binders (Tome of Magic).
Basically, learn spells that put your enemies at a huge disadvantage for fighting you. Leave the damage dealing to the new Tank of the party. Or CoDzilla, if you feel like destroying everything in the building and then some.
Also, pick up the right equipment for the jobs you are going to be doing (one good option to always have on you is Shapesand from Sandstorm, effectivly any mundane item you want, whenever you want it) and make tactical use of them.
Pick up Cityscape and Dungeonscape. They are excellent reads for this. Complete Mage and Complete Scoundrel are a must for the party, and Complete Champion has great feats in it. Spell Compendium is considered standard equipment for any play group.
Other than that, look for tactical and terrain advantages to hinder your opponents. Remember that Adventurers can do best when they are presented an opponent who just sits there in a cramped room and full attacks every turn. Think strategically. Bull Rushes, Trips, Disarms, and even Grappling will improve your survival chances.
And you are playing the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergard. Come back after each session that you have a combat and let us know what happens, so we can help you prepare for the next game day. With the right assistance, you will survive everything the DM throws at you from that module.
The wizard (you) should get 1 level of fighter, then get a twilight mithral chain shirt asap, then geometer, then eldritch knight, then archmage last few levels.
Ouch, that's some seriously bad advice.
Delaying spell acquisition is not the answer here.
OK, it's likely you don't so much suffer from damage lack as from hitting lack. Spells like Critical Strike and True Strike are invaluable, spells that buff you are likewise useful. Sadly you don't have a cleric to cast Bless, or a bard so that you can buff everyone, but on the plus-side you can summon allies - so do so! Summon a creature and put it between you and the enemy and keep shooting (it doesn't matter if you hit your own creature, it'll only last a few rounds anyway - callous but true).
Other spells that are handy - magic missile never misses, produce flame for the druid is a touch attack. A lot of small lots of damage will add up steadily. As for the drow, best tactic is to use his power of levitation and shoot from above. Tactics that will work for the party are the well-orchestrated ambush, hit and run - basically make the enemy come to you, so you can shoot them on the way, or so that you can use sneak attacks (put the drow rogue where he cannot be reached and shoot from there).
A tactic our party used on slower or equally fast foes was to retreat and shoot, making sure we stayed ahead of our foes: To shoot and move is a full action, do this and then double move and you stay ahead of your foes unless they double move (and if they do that they cannot attack - at best they might get an AoO when you fall back).
Other than that, look for tactical and terrain advantages to hinder your opponents. Remember that Adventurers can do best when they are presented an opponent who just sits there in a cramped room and full attacks every turn. Think strategically. Bull Rushes, Trips, Disarms, and even Grappling will improve your survival chances.
It is like a Renaissance in fighting for a party when they reach this realization: strategy works in D&D.
A tactic our party used on slower or equally fast foes was to retreat and shoot, making sure we stayed ahead of our foes: To shoot and move is a full action, do this and then double move and you stay ahead of your foes unless they double move (and if they do that they cannot attack - at best they might get an AoO when you fall back).
Unless they charge you. In which case they get the attack at +2 attack and damage *and* the attack of opportunity when you run away. This tactic will only work on foes that are significantly slower than you are (if you all move 30 ft., it would work on anything that has a move speed of 10 or slower).
The wizard (you) should get ...bad advice... a twilight mithral chain shirt asap ...bad advice...
There we go, fixed it. The twilight mithril chain shirt isn't a bad idea, but as it's got 0% ASF and 0 ACP, why the hell would you take the fighter level, which you don't need to use it? I don't see how that will help with damage output, though. Anyway, in a couple of levels, that druid is going to be a better tank than a standard "tank" anyway. Once wild shape kicks in, you can kiss your enemies goodbye, especially with all the spell support he'll be seeing. As a bonus, that drow rogue should be overcoming his LA and beginning to contribute at about the same time. Perhaps he should go with swashbuckler (daring outlaw feat, of course) and wind up with a more martial character, though, if you're worried about that.
I second everything written by Sinfire Titan, especially this bit:
It is like a Renaissance in fighting for a party when they reach this realization: strategy works in D&D.
Unless they charge you. In which case they get the attack at +2 attack and damage *and* the attack of opportunity when you run away. This tactic will only work on foes that are significantly slower than you are (if you all move 30 ft., it would work on anything that has a move speed of 10 or slower).
But sometimes, you just gotta kill every F***er in the damn room. When that happens, Tri-Rocket Launcher.
But sometimes, you just gotta kill every F***er in the damn room. When that happens, Tri-Rocket Launcher.
Lupus + Cluster Bomb FTW. You've brought me back.
Lupus + Cluster Bomb FTW. You've brought me back.
Lupus may have been the awesome, but Vela was dead sexy!
Can you name what Vela was famous for in the gaming Industry?
Unless they charge you. In which case they get the attack at +2 attack and damage *and* the attack of opportunity when you run away. This tactic will only work on foes that are significantly slower than you are (if you all move 30 ft., it would work on anything that has a move speed of 10 or slower).
That must be why we stayed out of charge range with those dwarves we were fighting and just shot them full of arrows ...
You really need to be able to do real damage, and as soon as possible. Each of your characters can contribute somewhat.
In this post, I'll deal with the easy case first: the druid. A druid isn't particularly powerful at low levels, but given your party makeup, he'll easily be the most powerful. It depends on his stats, too though, and his character choices.
If your druid chose the PHB2 class alternative, you're set, he'll be powerful if he's reasonably built (i.e. has a high strength). If your druid is going for wild shape, and cannot shapeshift, you need to rely on his surprisingly powerful animal companion. An absolutely perfect animal companion for a halfling of this level is a riding dog. When the druid gains 3rd level, he'll be boosted from 2 to 4 HD, granting him +1 str/dex (raising those to even numbers) an extra ability point (put in Con, also goes to an even number), gads of extra hp, a BAB of +3, a feat (consider weapon focus), +2 natural armor and more tricks. Make sure it's trained for war so you can put armor on it without penalty. That animal companion will be more powerful than the druid himself probably
- a attack of +7(1d6+4) with an AC of at least 23 (chain shirt barding) and 30 hit points is nothing to sneer at.Since your druid will need to tank, make sure he's capable of it, as much as possible. Companion Spellbond is a good choice, since it allows you and your companion to share spells beyond 5ft, which can be very useful. Summoning isn't bad, but it is very slow, so if you want to go summoning, make sure you have a few fast-acting abilities that don't need mega-buffing just in case - and an animal companion in barding is just such a thing.
You really really need a tank, not just for the damage, but also to keep opponents from attacking those with virtually no hit points, such as... well, the entire rest of the party. The more damage your tank deals, the better, since it means the opponents need to deal with the tank _now_ and can't just walk over to the 1HD rogue and kill him in passing. That means you should consider magic fang and bull strength whenever you can, in addition to summoning creatures. You should NOT waste time on battle-field control - why not? Because you already have 2 wizards on that task full-time. Only if there is some really pressing and convincing reason should you cast things like entangle, because usually, you'll be needed in the tank role more than in the control role. Of course, entangle is not a bad spell, so you'll need it sometimes, but realize that the circumstances mean that you (and your animal companion) should be a tank, first and foremost.
Consider also getting max ranks is ride, since ride can be very very useful, allow you to save your animal companion from hits and to take cover, occasionally. If you can't afford max-ranks, it's a lot less useful, since to avoid hits on your animal companion, you make a ride check which effectively becomes it's new AC if better, and thus each rank is an extra AC.
I'm not sure how much of the following is obvious, but at worst it's a little wordy.
I think your biggest problem will be your rogue. A first level drow rogue is... well... weak. The biggest problem will, of course, be survivability - and you'll drop regularly, there's just no way around that, if you actually participate in combat. So, either you're not in melee combat, or you better make sure that your fellow party members all have healing potions (and the druid should have a wand of cure light wounds) with instructions to pour 'em down your gullet if your head's still attached.
Unfortunately, ranged combat doesn't work well with a rogue's sneak attack - which is the only way you'll be doing significant damage. Especially at low levels, you really have no way of shooting from hiding. Once greater invisibility becomes available your beguiler and wizard friends should alleviate that problem, but 4th level spells are a long way off. That means you'll need to melee, and there's no way to boost your hit points. You do have a high Con, I hope, otherwise you should keep 4d6 handy to roll up your next character on-the-fly, since a Con penalty race rogue that's two levels behind the party is not going to make it unless his Con is high.
What you can improve, of course, is your AC. That should be as high as drowly possible, since you'll need to go into melee occasionally. You'll want a masterwork buckler (without armor check penalty, so you can use it even without shield prof.), or a more expensive heavy mithral shield, which also has no armor check penalty.
Tumble is your friend, not only since it allow movements and synergizes with your high Dex, but also since once you have 5 ranks next level, your total defense and fighting defensively options become that much more attractive. A person with 5 ranks in tumble has a +6 dodge bonus to AC when doing a total defense - and that's only a standard action, so you can combine that with, for instance walking through a dangerous spot where an AoO is likely.
Finally, obviously, you'll want to flank as often as possible. If you can get the druid and his animal companion and summoned critters to make a habit of paying attention to flanking options, you'll be that much more effective.
Consider getting a few nets, by the way. You're not proficient with it, but that's not really a problem, it's a ranged touch attack, so you'll hit almost always anyway, and then the target is entangled! That'll maybe keep an opponent or two busy, and annoys spellcasters (they need to make concentration checks). You probably want a few slightly more expensive tanglefoot bags and other similar annoyance items to be able to contribute against those creature that are simply too dangerous for you to approach, or immune to sneak attack damage. And of course, for those cases where you can attack from the safety of concealment or surprise, you'll definitely want a ranged weapon.
Oh, and convince your DM to allow the Level Adjustment buy-off for your char if your char even survives to 6th level. Since the rogue'll not exactly be a powerhouse he might feel a little sympathy
.Being able to wear light armor isn't as good as it sounds, at least at low levels. Armor usually comes with armor check penalties which are annoying for your skill checks, and the best light armor isn't any better than mage armor. Don't forget to use the immediate action spells (like the 2nd level stay-the hand, or the 3rd level hesitate and halt) as often as you can, it's a great way to use your large number of spell slots and slow the battle down a little more. Legion of Sentinels (3rd level) will make your rogue happy, as will glitterdust (2nd level, blind foes have no dex and can be sneak-attacked).
Obviously, a high Int at all costs is what a beguiler needs. So many spells allow saving throws and unlike things like fireball, the whelm series is completely negated on a successful save (and many monsters have high will saves or are completely immune - such as undead, so you can't rely on damage)
All in all, you better hope you don't encounter too many undead and constructs.
I'm guessing a wizard focused on battlefield control with a little direct damage thrown in will work fine - of course, which wizard doesn't do that? If your DM allows it, you might still choose the PHB2 alternate class ability if you're a conjurer. It could easily save your hide a few times.
Can you name what Vela was famous for in the gaming Industry?
Um, shortest skirt?
Um, shortest skirt?
I feel like I should respond, but I have nothing to say. I guess, in my heart, I always thought she was a good girl. I have to go back and beat that now, for old times sake. And for seeing my favorite characters in a whole new light.
I downloaded it to my PC a while back, because my cartridge broke and I'm missing my memory card. But still, how can you think a chick who runs around with a Tri-Rocket Launcher as her signature weapon while wearing tight-fitting thigh-height blue skirts and has body armor almost as revealing as Jo's from Burst Angel as a good girl?
And yes, Jo was the best example I could think of. Fun fact: The voice actress for Jo is the same person who does Hello Kitty's voice acting.
Update on things...
My buddy playing the drow rogue talked our DM into allowing LA buyoff out Unearthed Arcana... so, he's officially right up there with us dealing w/ HP, BAB (a whopping +2!), saves and SKILLS (we finally have our skillmonkey!). That lack of the +2 LA will be a savior for our group... now the drow rogue has some options and doesn't have to feel like he's letting us down by constantly "dying" on us.
Our halfling druid is attempting to be some sort of mounted terror on his riding dog and will be taking some mounted feats to enter the Halfling Outrider PrC. He will be our party tank and hopefully get the rogue some good opportunities to sneak attack.
Our beguiler is going to probably hang back w/ my wizard and lob arrows and spells into the fray. I'll be mostly concentrating on battlefield control stuff and using my new wand of magic missile to deal w/ "almost dead" enemies.
All in all, we will just have to use the best tactics we have and try to get every advantage from doing the following: charging for +2, flanking for +2 and sneak attacks, aid another for +2, true strike, magic weapon, using terrain to our advantage, and using as many ranged attacks as possible before being forced into melee.
Thanks again for all your posts!
We shall prevail!!!
We have squeaked thru a couple of encounters, but I had to post about our last big battle.
Over the last two sessions, we have successfully killed a blind mountain troll... but it took us TWENTY SEVEN rounds to do it
DM totaled up the damage and it came out to be over 450 hp to kill a 200 hp enemy, but we did it!!!It was more or less a battle of atrition... our party with its itty-bitty damage per character per round vs his fast healing/regen (whatever he had)
DM told us he was a CR 8 (since he was chained to the wall to begin the encounter), but he was CR 10 if he wouldn't have been chained... he broke the chain in the first round... stupid superstrong blind freak!
2nd level Halfling Druid (almost to 3rd level), 3rd level Elf Beguiler, 3rd level Gray Elf Wizard (me), and a 3rd level Drow Rogue (still fighting his +2 LA more than the bad guys!). All of our characters have a measly +1 BAB and that really isn't helping our accuracy of attacks.
You just picked a party that is "back end loaded" as far as damage is concerned. The druid will be dangerous when he gets wildshape, esp large wildshape. Until then, his companion should do. The beguiler never does damage. And as a wiz, you get dangerous when you can cast 3rd level spells, which you update shows you have now done.
And your party aslo has two skill monkeys, and two arcanists, with no real tank. The tank role does fall behind around now anyway.
How did your drow manage to buy off his LA and still keep up with the party in levels?
A common mistake among the newer players is focusing on damage.
In short, you shouldn't be doing that unless you are the Tank of the party. You should be focusing on shutting down the enemy's attack options and killing them through slow, meticulous damage.
A common strategy (YMMV) is to use spells such as Grease, Web, Entangle, and couple them with serious backup mundane damage from weapons and alchemical items and wands.
Look at the Character Optimization boards and the Handbooks for Druids, Clerics, and TreantMonk's Guide to Playing God (the Wizard handbook), and then search for effective melee builds like the Chain Tripper, Stormguard Warrior, and the Dungeon Crasher (all of which can be played using online content from WotC's site [even the Stormguard Warrior]), and then get a good skill monkey like a Factotum or Beguiler to take care of traps. .
A common mistake of the folks who read & post on the CO boards is to think that their theories actually apply to everyday IRL table-top gaming. Battlefield control is all well and good, but control all you will, you have to end up killing the monster in the end- at least most of the time.
And then folks contradict themselves- rely upon the tank for damage- fine, but a tripper is not a soruce of damage.
And, if you check, the party has BOTH a beguiler and a rogue.
if things devolve to melee combat, focus damage, everyone should shoot the same guy. if you can't hit them, use assists to give the rogue the highest hit you can.
since range is apparently your groups strength, either get wpn finesse or only put one person up front at a time. druid is the obvious front liner.
depending on how high your initiatives are, it may be OK to end your surprise round in an otherwise compromising position, since you have the next round to get defensive. remember, they can't perform AoOs until they have acted, a great rule for moving the rogue in, stabbing their back liner, and surviving.
Druid has wildshape, and you can nab an ape as an animal companion. Wizard can bring in huge centipedes via SM3 (may need to scribe a few scrolls to expand uses), and between him and the beguiler, they will have a fair number of control spells such as sleep, web, glitterdust, colour spray and deep slumber to fall back on. Of course, the druid is no slouch himself, with spontaneous summons and decent damage spells like flaming sphere, produce flame and call lightning. Give the rogue a wand of scorching ray to UMD or something. I wouldn't risk any of them in melee combat - that is what disposable summons are for.
Consider item creation feats to expand the number of spells you can cast each day.
The casters may consider looking to the reserve feats in complete mage for a reusable source of damage.
A common mistake of the folks who read & post on the CO boards is to think that their theories actually apply to everyday IRL table-top gaming. Battlefield control is all well and good, but control all you will, you have to end up killing the monster in the end- at least most of the time.
And then folks contradict themselves- rely upon the tank for damage- fine, but a tripper is not a soruce of damage.
And, if you check, the party has BOTH a beguiler and a rogue.
Trippers can indeed dish out the damage. They do get a large number of AoOs to compliment their strategy.
Invest in items that deal out energy damage of different types, and weapons of different materials like cold iron and silver. A party shouldn't rely on one damage dealer in any event.
You deficiency in damage comes to the fore in two ways: Foes with damage reduction, and foes with fast healing or regeneration.
Invest in items that deal out energy damage of different types, and weapons of different materials like cold iron and silver. A party shouldn't rely on one damage dealer in any event.
Unless that character can dish out 90+ damage per attack. All day long.