Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jack_of_all_trades_02 Oct 25, 2009 19:28:40	So, one of my new players wants to be "crafty".  He loves to improvise and turn his situation into an advantage for him.  He described pulling a macguyver by creating a situation where he would staircase out of a few chairs some twine and a little ducktape.  So I described the artificer to me and he said that he profers to be resourceful with his environment rather than with his abilities and powers and he didn't like the sound of the artificer. So we started talking about the rogue and the bard.  He liked the idea of being able to create distractions, mock his opponents, and cause them to inadvertantly hurt eachother.  I'm just not sure which class is better for this.  I love the rogues bloody path power, but the bard's at wills seem to do this exactly.  Which class is better at this sort of thing?  More importantly, which class is probably more fun for the crafty kind of player?
#2 pinfeldorf Oct 25, 2009 19:58:34	Sounds like he wants a Bard/Artifier hybrid to me.  As DM, you can let him have the flavor of making his contraptions out of found components (go out of your way to put specific objects in the room that he could McGuyver, for example).  The Bard lets him wreak havoc with his opponents by being a verbal jerkbag etc.  Really, though, how he experiences an Artificer is going to be 90% DMing to *make* it work the way he wants it.  Any DM should be willing to go slightly out of his way to accomodate a player's capacity for fun.
#3 johnnii Oct 26, 2009 4:43:30	Following things: -Training and Skill Focus in Thievery -Alchemy feat   Class doesn't matter in this case, though a Martial class fits the peg a little bit more.
#4 entropy_judge Oct 26, 2009 8:55:40	So I described the artificer to me and he said that he profers to be resourceful with his environment rather than with his abilities and powers and he didn't like the sound of the artificer. So we started talking about the rogue and the bard.  He liked the idea of being able to create distractions, mock his opponents, and cause them to inadvertantly hurt eachother. If he just wants to be resourceful with the environment, it doesn't particularly matter which *class* he chooses - that's simply being clever and thinking outside the box.  Moreso since it doesn't absolutely matter who comes up with the idea or who implements it - if everyone's going to die if they don't get out of situation X, and player A comes up with an idea that needs player B's skills to work, is A really going to hold out just because he can't be the one to 'save the day?' Also, he doesn't like the Artificer's ability/power resourcefulness, but he does like the Bard/Rogue's abilities to use their powers to manipulate the enemies?  Am I missing something, or is that something of a double-standard?
#5 i_roll_ones Oct 26, 2009 14:06:51	1) Does the party need a Striker, or a Leader? 2) Does he view his character as Manipulative and Intelligent (Assuming cunning bard build) or Manipulative and Dexterous? 3) Does he want to be on the front lines, or in the back directing the battle? 4) Does he want a lot of skills? He could use the bard multiclassing ability to take up different multiclass feats to get a LOT of different skills. Also, if he likes this path, mention the bardic knowledge, and the feat that goes with that. 5) Isn't there a feature to change ritual casting into alchemy? I don't have that book, but I vaguely remember that. If he enjoys the idea of alchemy, and this is in fact possible, then does he want to sacrifice it from bard to toss potions and chemicals about?
#6 jack_of_all_trades_02 Oct 26, 2009 16:54:33	He's not actually interested in alchemy per se.  He's not even that interested in being a bard or a rogue either.  What he's interested in is being crafty, and using his evironment in creative ways.  I imagine that if he was a druid and this was 3rd edition he'd find a way to use spells like warp wood and shape stone offensively.  He seems like the kind of guy who would hope to use a thunder power in a mine to cause a controlled avalance.  He said that he likes to fine creative ways to accomplish goals and objecties that aren't tied to powers or a abilities.  So he likes the idea of being MacGuyver but not in a traditional artificery way. While I love to reward creative ideas, I also have to keep them in check.  I'd like to find a way to channel his creativity with a class that rewards clever combat mechanics like the Warlord.  One thing he mentioned is that he would love to cause distractions, which got me thinking of the bard at wills, but again this is very much within the lines.  He liked the idea of the rogue's bloody path power, and pretty much anything that causes an enemy to hit unintentionally hurt themself or their allies.  Honestly with so many classes, I'm really wondering which kind of class would be right for this kind of player? Oh, and he mentioned that he's really into flourentine 2 weapon style fighting.  He's not particulary tied to a role.  I did try to steer him away from Defender as we have two of those all ready.
#7 Mcnancy Oct 26, 2009 19:49:32	Well it sound like he want's to focus on skills more than anything; there are a few ways to do this I would ask him what kinda skills he likes using, if it's only a few like thievery and acrobatics then go with a class that has utilities and feature that add to those, Artful dodger is good because they can get around and have fun things like magpie filch, if he wants to use as many skills as he can then Bard would be the best choice I once played around with the idea of a Deva Shaman/Bard Ancestral Incarnate who could hit any max ritual DC by taking a 10 because their skill bonus was so high
#8 aaddern Oct 27, 2009 12:17:33	more then just class , think of encounter building with him in mind.. give his creativitiy , creative ways to make a diffrence in battle without resorting to powers...   Example :  Large room with Big bad evil Monster in it..  the room has a chandelleer tide off to one of the walls so it can be raised and lowered  to have the candles lit / replaced .   group creativity could lead to Monster being proissioned uner said shandler and the rope being cut.  ( weak example , but just one that came to mind quick) ..  he is not relying on powers but superior tactics to win, and if you as DM plan for and build in ways for superior tacticts to add to the battle for at least a fair portion of your encounters , you will add to what this guy seems to want from the way i see it.
#9 jack_of_all_trades_02 Oct 29, 2009 18:47:56	That's a great idea, and when you add the artful dodger's ability to reposition everything.  I can reward him by putting interesting terrain based effects.  Very nice.
#10 madapplejack Oct 29, 2009 21:04:43	DMG 2 has interactive terrain elements, like chandeliers and tables full of explosive stuff.  With this kind of player, I'd put lots of those things all around for him.  I think a lot of them rely on making athletics checks, so any class that has that.
#11 LordOfWeasels Oct 29, 2009 22:32:59	I'm playing a Half-elf Artful Dodger Rogue/MC Bard with the Mark Of Scribing feat right now - which is to say, I'm Batman.  A few simple rituals (Brew Potion and Enchant Magic Item are the big ones) mean I've got something in my little bag of tricks for every situation.  Between CHA-heavy Rogue and Bard, I've got almost every Skill in the social book.  And I'm still the groups second-most-effective Striker (lagging the Greatweapon Fighter at L5), expecting to become most effective at or before 11, and I've got Healing to back me up. It's REALLY hard to beat this for all purpose utility, and there's 10K ways to flavour powers like Blinding Barrage and Positioning Strike into macguyering a situation in your favour.  I highly recommend the build.