Which leader should I play? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Which leader should I play?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mikeymo
Dec 12, 2009 12:27:39 Hey guys,

This is my first post here, so here we go... I'm about to dive in to my first experience with 4e. Used to play 3.5 a bit, but that was long ago. The group I'm playing with is new to D&D but they came quickly to the character building system.

Here's the thing: I've been volunteered the Leader. I don't mind this, as I wanted to make a Warlord in the first place. However, the party is this:

Lvl 1 Goliath Fighter
Lvl 1 Dragonborn Sorceror
Lvl 1 Eladrin Wizard
and me

Originally I wanted to make a Taclord, but I am afraid that the there is not enough healing with that build. Should I be playing an Inspiring Warlord... or a Cleric?

Thanks for any help guys.
#2
birdursh
Dec 12, 2009 13:26:24 A warlord or cleric would definitely be my suggestions since you'll definitely want someone else on the front line who can take a hit.

I notice you only include the first two builds of warlord. Do you have access to the Martial Power book? If so there's a build in there called the Resourceful Warlord which is a sort of mix between Inspiring and Tactical. However, the real kicker is the At-Will Brash Assault. It's supposedly designed for the other new build, the Bravura Warlord who is not about especially big healing at all, but I find it works pretty well for just about anyone. Sure, you make yourself into a target, but it really helps burn down the enemies. Note that it's any basic attack, not just melee, so your sorc or wizard might be able to get some shots in too.

With just a group of 4, you'll honestly probably get by with any warlord build. None of them are bad at healing, and you can manage a decent Cha and take feats to improve your ability.

#3
DanTracker
Dec 12, 2009 15:08:50 personally i think bard and shaman are excellent choices for leaders as well. bard isn't going to be as far from warlord as shaman. shaman serves some defender flair too.

the bard is fairly fun to play as it can act with melee weapon, range weapon and implement based powers. that offers plenty of versatility or it offers plenty of room to create an exclusive build while ocassionally bringing in additional flashy powers that fall a bit outside the build.

i play a melee bard/warlock. i stick with warlock powers mostly, but if enemies come close i can easily defend and attack with a longsword.

i also play a shaman multiclassed druid. i like the spirit companion because it can act as both a controller and defender. it can hold off enemies at a distance until the party heavy-hitters are ready to take those on or it can act as a defender by attracting enemy attention. because the damage rolls have to pretty high to take out the spirit completely, this offers a bit of a defender-like aspect because it can take most enemies and cause distraction.

however, if you really think you will have to be the healbot, the cleric is likley the highest healing ability in the leader role. as another poster mentioned, he can act as a frontline fighter quite strongly. that can help the defender. in fact, i play a cleric and i use it in that way more so than a laser cleric.

i'm not as much a fan of warlord except for the commander's strike power. as you've got a fighter, that fighter will have a strong melee basic attack that can benefit from commander's strike. but then, i don't play a warlord and maybe that's why i just don't love it as much.

i've even played artificer. din't love it, but with several of the new powers from the recent article...it could be much better now than it was.
#4
kouk
Dec 12, 2009 19:45:04 I agree you want someone who can stand at the front, to help flank with the Fighter and shield the Sorcerer and Wizard.

Tactical Warlords are not the best "healers" in the game, it's true. Pretty much the idea is they boost the party's damage output to end the fights faster and prevent damage in the first place. But without much melee support in that party you'll probably find your options limited. It can help if the Wizard and Sorcerer go for character options that allow melee attacks but they still will likely be as far from the action as they can manage.

Resourceful EDIT: Inspiring Warlords are still not very great at healing. They are better than Tactical, but with a focus more on temporary hit points and defense or attack boosts, and granting saving throws to avoid bad things in the first place. It can definitely work though.

Both Warlords also help by absorbing a few hits which otherwise would go to other party members.

Resourceful is definitely interesting, but I personally feel kind of like it's "Jack of all trades, master of none" or "overpowered" alternatively. It may be just want you want though to get more healing and tactical flavor.

Clerics are the kings of healing, if you put even a token effort into making sure they have healing abilities. Melee clerics are still in some ways trickier and not quite so great at healing if you purely go for melee abilities; be careful about powers that require hitting AC in order to work, like Healing Strike, because it's easier to miss and so not actually heal anyone. It can also be tough to balance your Strength requirements with Wisdom.

A mix of powers that target different defenses is probably best. But like Warlords your own body is up there and taking some of the heat off the rest of the party.

Melee Bards are an option too, but I don't know so much about them.
#5
darkspartan
Dec 12, 2009 21:19:11 If you have access to the Eberron Player's Guide, you may want to look into the Artificer. THey have the ability to recharge magic items, make new ones over-level, and surgeless healing (at least for the first bit). I like a Construct build, but there are others that work just as well, and can keep the healing coming. They invariably start with Create and Disenchant Magic Item, and Brew Potion. Might cost a bit to keep up, but it does work.

But then, just about all the leaders except the Cleric have that issue, IIRC.

-Sarena
#6
Novacat
Dec 13, 2009 1:34:10 I can't recommend Warlord enough. It's my favorite class EVER, and I think every party should have at least one. Everyone else seems to think taclords are the way to go, but I've always favored the "bardlord". Inspiring Warlords can, in some parties, heal even better than a cleric (though probably not in your party). The addition of a Warlord's tactical abilities, such as Wolf Pack Tactics (a must for every Warlord), gives him an even greater sense of importance on the battlefield.
#7
mikeymo
Dec 13, 2009 2:22:20
Thanks for all the quick replies guys. I think I'll try my hand at an Inspiring Warlord (bardlord, was it?) and see what happens.
#8
Stafir_Ortnev
Dec 13, 2009 9:02:12 Honestly I've got several builds for leaders...you have a group that honestly needs someone else in melee, unless the wizard and sorc are going for unusual builds..so choosing a melee leader is a pretty good idea.

Inspiring wardlord has a somewhat odd way of leading, while healing still isn't as great..and the benefit from the action point isn't that special. Having many attacks that say 'add charisma to the next persons attack bonus and damage' is a very awesome effect, and many later warlord powers say just that...or last for a turn..or last for an encounter..or add it to AC instead.

If you guys have any Dragon magazine PDFs (or a subscription) I've always found a dragonborn warlord wielding a whip to be quite interesting.

If you really want much more healing..I think inspiring warlord multi-ing into cleric is a pretty good deal and you get an extra heal from the cleric (and later on access to some cleric powers).

But as others have said..warlord isn't really heal happy, what you prob want to happen is have the sorc and wizard both go a bit more..controllery, take stuff that screws up the enemy so they can't be too effective...
#9
Novacat
Dec 13, 2009 11:14:17
Inspiring wardlord has a somewhat odd way of leading, while healing still isn't as great

You shut your mouth.

No, seriously, IME, Inspiring Warlords make even better healers than clerics.
#10
Stafir_Ortnev
Dec 13, 2009 13:05:27 I play an inspiring warlord with a bent towards healing.

A warlord isn't strong healing..its mediocre to ok healing, but definately not strong healing.

A warlords specialty is in buffing, not in healing. Yeah I've got a few tricks..but only so many powers actually heal..and usually the heal isn't as high as some of the silly tricks I've seen other healers do (mostly clerics to be honest though).

Yes warlords are do..but to call their healing anything over average would be a mistake. About the only specialty in healing I've seen is being able to mass heal a tad bit more often, which is rather useful.
#11
absimiliard
Dec 13, 2009 15:40:07 Seems to me a eage-shaman kitted out to do ranged attack support could do some hideously fun stuff with those companions.

-abs
#12
Novacat
Dec 13, 2009 23:38:47
I play an inspiring warlord with a bent towards healing.

A warlord isn't strong healing..its mediocre to ok healing, but definately not strong healing.

A warlords specialty is in buffing, not in healing. Yeah I've got a few tricks..but only so many powers actually heal..and usually the heal isn't as high as some of the silly tricks I've seen other healers do (mostly clerics to be honest though).

Yes warlords are do..but to call their healing anything over average would be a mistake. About the only specialty in healing I've seen is being able to mass heal a tad bit more often, which is rather useful.

Really where Warlords shine over Clerics in healing is not how many HP are restored per heal, but how often they can grant healing. When you compare a Cleric's healing abilities to a Warlord's equivalent abilities, you'll find, pretty consistently, that the Cleric's ability is better, but either it can't be used as often, or the Warlord gets something extra to compensate.

For instance, a Cleric's Healing Word is, in every way, better than or equal to a Warlord's Inspiring Word (barring feats), but the Warlord also gets Inspiring Presence, which, at higher levels (or with feats) will restore more HP over the course of the adventuring day than the difference in the Word powers.

The level 2 healing Utility power for clerics is Cure Light Wounds, which is better than the Warlord's Aid the Injured, but CLW is a daily, while AtI is an encounter power. This, in my experience, makes a huge difference over the course of the entire adventuring day, especially when the Warlord starts buffing his heals with feats and items, which will be applied more often than on a Cleric.

But then again, I'm the Warlord choir. I know I'm biased because I love Warlords so much.
#13
birdursh
Dec 13, 2009 23:51:31 Absililard does bring up a rather devious, though potentially challenging, point.
#14
masterfat78
Dec 14, 2009 0:02:03 I tend to use warlords and clerics.Inspirelords are pretty good healers second only to clerics,but there are so many ways to make a healer cleric,its a far second(but still pretty good).So far ive only liked resourcelords as tieflings because their a little more MAD.Bravelords are made for races without secondary stats but with str and con bonuses to keep them in the fight.The only time I get the urge to play a tactlord is if its an eladrin(usually MC wizard).
#15
masterfat78
Dec 14, 2009 0:03:02 Havent tried the shaman or bard yet but they both look cool.
#16
Stafir_Ortnev
Dec 14, 2009 10:11:26
I play an inspiring warlord with a bent towards healing.

A warlord isn't strong healing..its mediocre to ok healing, but definately not strong healing.

A warlords specialty is in buffing, not in healing. Yeah I've got a few tricks..but only so many powers actually heal..and usually the heal isn't as high as some of the silly tricks I've seen other healers do (mostly clerics to be honest though).

Yes warlords are do..but to call their healing anything over average would be a mistake. About the only specialty in healing I've seen is being able to mass heal a tad bit more often, which is rather useful.

Really where Warlords shine over Clerics in healing is not how many HP are restored per heal, but how often they can grant healing. When you compare a Cleric's healing abilities to a Warlord's equivalent abilities, you'll find, pretty consistently, that the Cleric's ability is better, but either it can't be used as often, or the Warlord gets something extra to compensate.

For instance, a Cleric's Healing Word is, in every way, better than or equal to a Warlord's Inspiring Word (barring feats), but the Warlord also gets Inspiring Presence, which, at higher levels (or with feats) will restore more HP over the course of the adventuring day than the difference in the Word powers.

The level 2 healing Utility power for clerics is Cure Light Wounds, which is better than the Warlord's Aid the Injured, but CLW is a daily, while AtI is an encounter power. This, in my experience, makes a huge difference over the course of the entire adventuring day, especially when the Warlord starts buffing his heals with feats and items, which will be applied more often than on a Cleric.

But then again, I'm the Warlord choir. I know I'm biased because I love Warlords so much.

Part of that is prob the group I run with. An Inspiring Warlords action point heal is laughed at, and often seen as useless in my group. Part of this is because they all like to use action points first thing and consider saving them during an encounter to be on the not smart part of things, if you plan to use one anyway.

Also do remember that after both martial Power and divine power came out..Clerics can now possibly have an at will heal, yeah sure its a pinata heal..but its still a half decent heal. Heals that just grant a single person a healing surge isn't really seen as that good in my area...sure its a heal (and a heal is a heal is a heal)...but it also 'wastes' resources that could be better spent if it was another healer.

Again I'm not saying Warlords are horrible healers, just that they arn't one of the top best healers...their strength lies elsewhere. And yes their big thing is healing lots...but its usually a weak heal...and at the end of the day making the defender spend 4 surges that some other classes would have instead make them spend 1 or 2? Can be the diff between being able to heal again or not.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mikeymo Dec 12, 2009 12:27:39	Hey guys, This is my first post here, so here we go... I'm about to dive in to my first experience with 4e. Used to play 3.5 a bit, but that was long ago. The group I'm playing with is new to D&D but they came quickly to the character building system. Here's the thing: I've been volunteered the Leader. I don't mind this, as I wanted to make a Warlord in the first place. However, the party is this: Lvl 1 Goliath Fighter Lvl 1 Dragonborn Sorceror Lvl 1 Eladrin Wizard and me Originally I wanted to make a Taclord, but I am afraid that the there is not enough healing with that build. Should I be playing an Inspiring Warlord... or a Cleric? Thanks for any help guys.
#2 birdursh Dec 12, 2009 13:26:24	A warlord or cleric would definitely be my suggestions since you'll definitely want someone else on the front line who can take a hit. I notice you only include the first two builds of warlord. Do you have access to the Martial Power book? If so there's a build in there called the Resourceful Warlord which is a sort of mix between Inspiring and Tactical. However, the real kicker is the At-Will Brash Assault. It's supposedly designed for the other new build, the Bravura Warlord who is not about especially big healing at all, but I find it works pretty well for just about anyone. Sure, you make yourself into a target, but it really helps burn down the enemies. Note that it's any basic attack, not just melee, so your sorc or wizard might be able to get some shots in too. With just a group of 4, you'll honestly probably get by with any warlord build. None of them are bad at healing, and you can manage a decent Cha and take feats to improve your ability.
#3 DanTracker Dec 12, 2009 15:08:50	personally i think bard and shaman are excellent choices for leaders as well. bard isn't going to be as far from warlord as shaman. shaman serves some defender flair too. the bard is fairly fun to play as it can act with melee weapon, range weapon and implement based powers. that offers plenty of versatility or it offers plenty of room to create an exclusive build while ocassionally bringing in additional flashy powers that fall a bit outside the build. i play a melee bard/warlock. i stick with warlock powers mostly, but if enemies come close i can easily defend and attack with a longsword. i also play a shaman multiclassed druid. i like the spirit companion because it can act as both a controller and defender. it can hold off enemies at a distance until the party heavy-hitters are ready to take those on or it can act as a defender by attracting enemy attention. because the damage rolls have to pretty high to take out the spirit completely, this offers a bit of a defender-like aspect because it can take most enemies and cause distraction. however, if you really think you will have to be the healbot, the cleric is likley the highest healing ability in the leader role. as another poster mentioned, he can act as a frontline fighter quite strongly. that can help the defender. in fact, i play a cleric and i use it in that way more so than a laser cleric. i'm not as much a fan of warlord except for the commander's strike power. as you've got a fighter, that fighter will have a strong melee basic attack that can benefit from commander's strike. but then, i don't play a warlord and maybe that's why i just don't love it as much. i've even played artificer. din't love it, but with several of the new powers from the recent article...it could be much better now than it was.
#4 kouk Dec 12, 2009 19:45:04	I agree you want someone who can stand at the front, to help flank with the Fighter and shield the Sorcerer and Wizard. Tactical Warlords are not the best "healers" in the game, it's true. Pretty much the idea is they boost the party's damage output to end the fights faster and prevent damage in the first place. But without much melee support in that party you'll probably find your options limited. It can help if the Wizard and Sorcerer go for character options that allow melee attacks but they still will likely be as far from the action as they can manage. Resourceful EDIT: Inspiring Warlords are still not very great at healing. They are better than Tactical, but with a focus more on temporary hit points and defense or attack boosts, and granting saving throws to avoid bad things in the first place. It can definitely work though. Both Warlords also help by absorbing a few hits which otherwise would go to other party members. Resourceful is definitely interesting, but I personally feel kind of like it's "Jack of all trades, master of none" or "overpowered" alternatively. It may be just want you want though to get more healing and tactical flavor. Clerics are the kings of healing, if you put even a token effort into making sure they have healing abilities. Melee clerics are still in some ways trickier and not quite so great at healing if you purely go for melee abilities; be careful about powers that require hitting AC in order to work, like Healing Strike, because it's easier to miss and so not actually heal anyone. It can also be tough to balance your Strength requirements with Wisdom. A mix of powers that target different defenses is probably best. But like Warlords your own body is up there and taking some of the heat off the rest of the party. Melee Bards are an option too, but I don't know so much about them.
#5 darkspartan Dec 12, 2009 21:19:11	If you have access to the Eberron Player's Guide, you may want to look into the Artificer. THey have the ability to recharge magic items, make new ones over-level, and surgeless healing (at least for the first bit). I like a Construct build, but there are others that work just as well, and can keep the healing coming. They invariably start with Create and Disenchant Magic Item, and Brew Potion. Might cost a bit to keep up, but it does work. But then, just about all the leaders except the Cleric have that issue, IIRC. -Sarena
#6 Novacat Dec 13, 2009 1:34:10	I can't recommend Warlord enough. It's my favorite class EVER, and I think every party should have at least one. Everyone else seems to think taclords are the way to go, but I've always favored the "bardlord". Inspiring Warlords can, in some parties, heal even better than a cleric (though probably not in your party). The addition of a Warlord's tactical abilities, such as Wolf Pack Tactics (a must for every Warlord), gives him an even greater sense of importance on the battlefield.
#7 mikeymo Dec 13, 2009 2:22:20	Thanks for all the quick replies guys. I think I'll try my hand at an Inspiring Warlord (bardlord, was it?) and see what happens.
#8 Stafir_Ortnev Dec 13, 2009 9:02:12	Honestly I've got several builds for leaders...you have a group that honestly needs someone else in melee, unless the wizard and sorc are going for unusual builds..so choosing a melee leader is a pretty good idea. Inspiring wardlord has a somewhat odd way of leading, while healing still isn't as great..and the benefit from the action point isn't that special. Having many attacks that say 'add charisma to the next persons attack bonus and damage' is a very awesome effect, and many later warlord powers say just that...or last for a turn..or last for an encounter..or add it to AC instead. If you guys have any Dragon magazine PDFs (or a subscription) I've always found a dragonborn warlord wielding a whip to be quite interesting. If you really want much more healing..I think inspiring warlord multi-ing into cleric is a pretty good deal and you get an extra heal from the cleric (and later on access to some cleric powers). But as others have said..warlord isn't really heal happy, what you prob want to happen is have the sorc and wizard both go a bit more..controllery, take stuff that screws up the enemy so they can't be too effective...
#9 Novacat Dec 13, 2009 11:14:17	Inspiring wardlord has a somewhat odd way of leading, while healing still isn't as great You shut your mouth. No, seriously, IME, Inspiring Warlords make even better healers than clerics.
#10 Stafir_Ortnev Dec 13, 2009 13:05:27	I play an inspiring warlord with a bent towards healing. A warlord isn't strong healing..its mediocre to ok healing, but definately not strong healing. A warlords specialty is in buffing, not in healing. Yeah I've got a few tricks..but only so many powers actually heal..and usually the heal isn't as high as some of the silly tricks I've seen other healers do (mostly clerics to be honest though). Yes warlords are do..but to call their healing anything over average would be a mistake. About the only specialty in healing I've seen is being able to mass heal a tad bit more often, which is rather useful.
#11 absimiliard Dec 13, 2009 15:40:07	Seems to me a eage-shaman kitted out to do ranged attack support could do some hideously fun stuff with those companions. -abs
#12 Novacat Dec 13, 2009 23:38:47	I play an inspiring warlord with a bent towards healing. A warlord isn't strong healing..its mediocre to ok healing, but definately not strong healing. A warlords specialty is in buffing, not in healing. Yeah I've got a few tricks..but only so many powers actually heal..and usually the heal isn't as high as some of the silly tricks I've seen other healers do (mostly clerics to be honest though). Yes warlords are do..but to call their healing anything over average would be a mistake. About the only specialty in healing I've seen is being able to mass heal a tad bit more often, which is rather useful. Really where Warlords shine over Clerics in healing is not how many HP are restored per heal, but how often they can grant healing. When you compare a Cleric's healing abilities to a Warlord's equivalent abilities, you'll find, pretty consistently, that the Cleric's ability is better, but either it can't be used as often, or the Warlord gets something extra to compensate. For instance, a Cleric's Healing Word is, in every way, better than or equal to a Warlord's Inspiring Word (barring feats), but the Warlord also gets Inspiring Presence, which, at higher levels (or with feats) will restore more HP over the course of the adventuring day than the difference in the Word powers. The level 2 healing Utility power for clerics is Cure Light Wounds, which is better than the Warlord's Aid the Injured, but CLW is a daily, while AtI is an encounter power. This, in my experience, makes a huge difference over the course of the entire adventuring day, especially when the Warlord starts buffing his heals with feats and items, which will be applied more often than on a Cleric. But then again, I'm the Warlord choir. I know I'm biased because I love Warlords so much.
#13 birdursh Dec 13, 2009 23:51:31	Absililard does bring up a rather devious, though potentially challenging, point.
#14 masterfat78 Dec 14, 2009 0:02:03	I tend to use warlords and clerics.Inspirelords are pretty good healers second only to clerics,but there are so many ways to make a healer cleric,its a far second(but still pretty good).So far ive only liked resourcelords as tieflings because their a little more MAD.Bravelords are made for races without secondary stats but with str and con bonuses to keep them in the fight.The only time I get the urge to play a tactlord is if its an eladrin(usually MC wizard).
#15 masterfat78 Dec 14, 2009 0:03:02	Havent tried the shaman or bard yet but they both look cool.
#16 Stafir_Ortnev Dec 14, 2009 10:11:26	I play an inspiring warlord with a bent towards healing. A warlord isn't strong healing..its mediocre to ok healing, but definately not strong healing. A warlords specialty is in buffing, not in healing. Yeah I've got a few tricks..but only so many powers actually heal..and usually the heal isn't as high as some of the silly tricks I've seen other healers do (mostly clerics to be honest though). Yes warlords are do..but to call their healing anything over average would be a mistake. About the only specialty in healing I've seen is being able to mass heal a tad bit more often, which is rather useful. Really where Warlords shine over Clerics in healing is not how many HP are restored per heal, but how often they can grant healing. When you compare a Cleric's healing abilities to a Warlord's equivalent abilities, you'll find, pretty consistently, that the Cleric's ability is better, but either it can't be used as often, or the Warlord gets something extra to compensate. For instance, a Cleric's Healing Word is, in every way, better than or equal to a Warlord's Inspiring Word (barring feats), but the Warlord also gets Inspiring Presence, which, at higher levels (or with feats) will restore more HP over the course of the adventuring day than the difference in the Word powers. The level 2 healing Utility power for clerics is Cure Light Wounds, which is better than the Warlord's Aid the Injured, but CLW is a daily, while AtI is an encounter power. This, in my experience, makes a huge difference over the course of the entire adventuring day, especially when the Warlord starts buffing his heals with feats and items, which will be applied more often than on a Cleric. But then again, I'm the Warlord choir. I know I'm biased because I love Warlords so much. Part of that is prob the group I run with. An Inspiring Warlords action point heal is laughed at, and often seen as useless in my group. Part of this is because they all like to use action points first thing and consider saving them during an encounter to be on the not smart part of things, if you plan to use one anyway. Also do remember that after both martial Power and divine power came out..Clerics can now possibly have an at will heal, yeah sure its a pinata heal..but its still a half decent heal. Heals that just grant a single person a healing surge isn't really seen as that good in my area...sure its a heal (and a heal is a heal is a heal)...but it also 'wastes' resources that could be better spent if it was another healer. Again I'm not saying Warlords are horrible healers, just that they arn't one of the top best healers...their strength lies elsewhere. And yes their big thing is healing lots...but its usually a weak heal...and at the end of the day making the defender spend 4 surges that some other classes would have instead make them spend 1 or 2? Can be the diff between being able to heal again or not.