White Lies VS. Bluff checks - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

White Lies VS. Bluff checks

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
arcana_man
Apr 03, 2009 3:48:21 Hmm this is somthing i have been doing in game sessions... In general... Somtimes my characters have low bluff scores or just to get around having to make them when i have to lie... i try to find wording around the like so im not being honest but technicly i dont have to make a bluff check...i think... mayby my dm just dosnt know how to deal with it... Well let me try to think of an example

...Say there is a theif who is standing next to a apple table aside me and he looks at me out of nowhere points his finger at me and says "You just stole and apple!" only to distract everyone to watch me empty my pockets to prove my innocence while he gets his bonus on his slight of hand check to...STEAL AND APPLE....When he said "You just stold an apple!' does that require a bluff check?

And btw this particular situation has never happend and was acctually a bad example to what im trying to get accros BUT... in general Can you somtimes make a white lie to overcome a bluff check or is every single situation that isnt completely truthfull require some bluff checks...give me some of your opinions on this and again sorry for the terrible example
#2
fredrik_svanberg
Apr 03, 2009 4:10:42 If you are trying to gain a mechanical advantage for some action, a bluff check is probably required. In your example the thief is trying to create a diversion in order to be able to steal something, clearly an advantage since he can't steal if people are watching him too closely. He might even get a bonus to the thievery if the bluff works. That should require a bluff check vs the passive insight of all the witnesses.
#3
arcana_man
Apr 03, 2009 4:40:43 yeah yea... i figured that would be the case...if its beneficial to have someone perceive something the way you would like it i spose it requires a bluff check...well heres another example say i snuck over away from my group to spy on some guys for multiple reasons and reason A is private and i dont want the party member to find out about it.. say it could result in me being killed and the reason B is somewhat legitamate... if i mention only reason B Does that result in bluff checks... i gues does withholding information in a kind of white lie way or things like that... i gues this is a better example of what i kind of mean

what do you think then?
#4
ADHadh
Apr 03, 2009 6:03:50 I thought a white lie was telling someone in a horrible shirt that it looks interesting?
I'd rule that as a Diplomacy check, if a check is needed.
#5
Zherog
Apr 03, 2009 6:57:49
yeah yea... i figured that would be the case...if its beneficial to have someone perceive something the way you would like it i spose it requires a bluff check...well heres another example say i snuck over away from my group to spy on some guys for multiple reasons and reason A is private and i dont want the party member to find out about it.. say it could result in me being killed and the reason B is somewhat legitamate... if i mention only reason B Does that result in bluff checks... i gues does withholding information in a kind of white lie way or things like that... i gues this is a better example of what i kind of mean

what do you think then?

No, but...

If you're playing 3.5 I would allow the other players a Sense Motive roll if hiding A was important.

SENSE MOTIVE (WIS)
...
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.

I don't know if 4e has anything similar or not.
#6
fredrik_svanberg
Apr 03, 2009 6:58:13
i dont want the party member to find out about it..

I don't think you should use social skills for interaction between party members at all.

In this case there would not be a mechanical advantage anyway, so a bluff check is not necessary. In my opinion.
#7
shadowmantis
Apr 03, 2009 9:09:55 A good real life example might be a politician asked a hard question that he doesn't want to answer.

If he is succesful the reporter accepts his answer and goes on with the interview

If he is not successful the reporter says "You didn't answer my question" and he has to try and talk his way around it again.

I would say even though he isn't technically lying he is bluffing because he is trying to evade the question asked without being too obvious about it.
#8
runcdfirst
Apr 03, 2009 10:14:16 A successful Sense Motive (or Insight now) does not mean that the individual knows that what you said was a lie. As the poster above, the succesful check could indicate that they are aware that you avoided the question or that 'something just doesn't fit.'

And even if the PCs do roll and catch that you're not being 100% honest, what are they going to do? Call you out on it?

"Hey man, I think you're lying about you being in danger of being killed."

Depending on the circumstance, the person that passed the Sense Motive/Insight may come off as a buffoon.

Also, just because you failed the Bluff check, doesn't force you to tell the truth.

You: "I don't want to get killed by being in a bad position."
Insight: "Hey, come on, what's really bothering you?"
You: "Look, I told you, I don't want to put myself in danger. Just drop it, ok?"
#9
Simonides
Apr 03, 2009 10:40:18 I think the key goes beyond "mechanical benefit" to "consequence for failure."

A skill check exists to add risk to a situation. That is, to add uncertainty and tension. As a DM, I only call for Bluff checks when I actually want to add tension to the game.

So, imagine this: the character is asked by a guard at a city gate where he comes from. He decides to lie and to try and pass himself as coming from a different region than he truly did. I ask myself - does it matter? If the guards realize he is lying, will they react differently and make the adventure more difficult?

If the character is ashamed of his homeland or is trying to run away from his past, I don't bother with a Bluff check.

But, if the guards are inclined to treat people from that region differently (perhaps with distrust or outright hatred), then I do ask for a roll.

Remember that every die roll stops the narrative of the story. Everytime someone makes a social skill check in the middle of a conversation, for instance, it is like someone tapping the brakes on the conversation. So, I only use die rolls when it is meaningful.

That being said, if your character has a poor Bluff skill and you try to get away with too many lies without rolls, I will call you on it. NPCs will start distrusting the character. Or else, I will start asking for die rolls. You cannot be a pathological liar or keep too many secrets if you don't know how to put together a good story.

And finally, because I have gone on a long time already, I am going to add this. Lies of omissions, misleading statements, and so forth are still attempts to hide or deflect the truth. In fact, they can be harder to pull off than bald-faced lies at times. If you have read the Wheel of Time books, remember that the Aes Sedai (wizards) were forbidden from outright lying but they were so well known for using omissions and misleading statements that people didn't trust them anyway. "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth you hear may not be the truth she is saying." In other words, there is a reason the skill is called "Bluff" and not "Lie." It covers a a lot more types of dishonesty, even including dishonesty in swinging your weapon (Feint).
#10
mellored
Apr 03, 2009 10:53:43 Bluff: To mislead.

You are trying to mislead someone, thus you bluff.

I generally give bonuses/penalties for how big the lie is. For instance, a small lie "i was saving that seat for a friend" when you really just wanted the leg room would probably gets a +3 to bluff, but saying "quick give me your clothes, dragons hate naked women" would get a -8 bluff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arcana_man Apr 03, 2009 3:48:21	Hmm this is somthing i have been doing in game sessions... In general... Somtimes my characters have low bluff scores or just to get around having to make them when i have to lie... i try to find wording around the like so im not being honest but technicly i dont have to make a bluff check...i think... mayby my dm just dosnt know how to deal with it... Well let me try to think of an example ...Say there is a theif who is standing next to a apple table aside me and he looks at me out of nowhere points his finger at me and says "You just stole and apple!" only to distract everyone to watch me empty my pockets to prove my innocence while he gets his bonus on his slight of hand check to...STEAL AND APPLE....When he said "You just stold an apple!' does that require a bluff check? And btw this particular situation has never happend and was acctually a bad example to what im trying to get accros BUT... in general Can you somtimes make a white lie to overcome a bluff check or is every single situation that isnt completely truthfull require some bluff checks...give me some of your opinions on this and again sorry for the terrible example
#2 fredrik_svanberg Apr 03, 2009 4:10:42	If you are trying to gain a mechanical advantage for some action, a bluff check is probably required. In your example the thief is trying to create a diversion in order to be able to steal something, clearly an advantage since he can't steal if people are watching him too closely. He might even get a bonus to the thievery if the bluff works. That should require a bluff check vs the passive insight of all the witnesses.
#3 arcana_man Apr 03, 2009 4:40:43	yeah yea... i figured that would be the case...if its beneficial to have someone perceive something the way you would like it i spose it requires a bluff check...well heres another example say i snuck over away from my group to spy on some guys for multiple reasons and reason A is private and i dont want the party member to find out about it.. say it could result in me being killed and the reason B is somewhat legitamate... if i mention only reason B Does that result in bluff checks... i gues does withholding information in a kind of white lie way or things like that... i gues this is a better example of what i kind of mean what do you think then?
#4 ADHadh Apr 03, 2009 6:03:50	I thought a white lie was telling someone in a horrible shirt that it looks interesting? I'd rule that as a Diplomacy check, if a check is needed.
#5 Zherog Apr 03, 2009 6:57:49	yeah yea... i figured that would be the case...if its beneficial to have someone perceive something the way you would like it i spose it requires a bluff check...well heres another example say i snuck over away from my group to spy on some guys for multiple reasons and reason A is private and i dont want the party member to find out about it.. say it could result in me being killed and the reason B is somewhat legitamate... if i mention only reason B Does that result in bluff checks... i gues does withholding information in a kind of white lie way or things like that... i gues this is a better example of what i kind of mean what do you think then? No, but... If you're playing 3.5 I would allow the other players a Sense Motive roll if hiding A was important. SENSE MOTIVE (WIS) ... Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy. I don't know if 4e has anything similar or not.
#6 fredrik_svanberg Apr 03, 2009 6:58:13	i dont want the party member to find out about it.. I don't think you should use social skills for interaction between party members at all. In this case there would not be a mechanical advantage anyway, so a bluff check is not necessary. In my opinion.
#7 shadowmantis Apr 03, 2009 9:09:55	A good real life example might be a politician asked a hard question that he doesn't want to answer. If he is succesful the reporter accepts his answer and goes on with the interview If he is not successful the reporter says "You didn't answer my question" and he has to try and talk his way around it again. I would say even though he isn't technically lying he is bluffing because he is trying to evade the question asked without being too obvious about it.
#8 runcdfirst Apr 03, 2009 10:14:16	A successful Sense Motive (or Insight now) does not mean that the individual knows that what you said was a lie. As the poster above, the succesful check could indicate that they are aware that you avoided the question or that 'something just doesn't fit.' And even if the PCs do roll and catch that you're not being 100% honest, what are they going to do? Call you out on it? "Hey man, I think you're lying about you being in danger of being killed." Depending on the circumstance, the person that passed the Sense Motive/Insight may come off as a buffoon. Also, just because you failed the Bluff check, doesn't force you to tell the truth. You: "I don't want to get killed by being in a bad position." Insight: "Hey, come on, what's really bothering you?" You: "Look, I told you, I don't want to put myself in danger. Just drop it, ok?"
#9 Simonides Apr 03, 2009 10:40:18	I think the key goes beyond "mechanical benefit" to "consequence for failure." A skill check exists to add risk to a situation. That is, to add uncertainty and tension. As a DM, I only call for Bluff checks when I actually want to add tension to the game. So, imagine this: the character is asked by a guard at a city gate where he comes from. He decides to lie and to try and pass himself as coming from a different region than he truly did. I ask myself - does it matter? If the guards realize he is lying, will they react differently and make the adventure more difficult? If the character is ashamed of his homeland or is trying to run away from his past, I don't bother with a Bluff check. But, if the guards are inclined to treat people from that region differently (perhaps with distrust or outright hatred), then I do ask for a roll. Remember that every die roll stops the narrative of the story. Everytime someone makes a social skill check in the middle of a conversation, for instance, it is like someone tapping the brakes on the conversation. So, I only use die rolls when it is meaningful. That being said, if your character has a poor Bluff skill and you try to get away with too many lies without rolls, I will call you on it. NPCs will start distrusting the character. Or else, I will start asking for die rolls. You cannot be a pathological liar or keep too many secrets if you don't know how to put together a good story. And finally, because I have gone on a long time already, I am going to add this. Lies of omissions, misleading statements, and so forth are still attempts to hide or deflect the truth. In fact, they can be harder to pull off than bald-faced lies at times. If you have read the Wheel of Time books, remember that the Aes Sedai (wizards) were forbidden from outright lying but they were so well known for using omissions and misleading statements that people didn't trust them anyway. "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth you hear may not be the truth she is saying." In other words, there is a reason the skill is called "Bluff" and not "Lie." It covers a a lot more types of dishonesty, even including dishonesty in swinging your weapon (Feint).
#10 mellored Apr 03, 2009 10:53:43	Bluff: To mislead. You are trying to mislead someone, thus you bluff. I generally give bonuses/penalties for how big the lie is. For instance, a small lie "i was saving that seat for a friend" when you really just wanted the leg room would probably gets a +3 to bluff, but saying "quick give me your clothes, dragons hate naked women" would get a -8 bluff.