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Who needs ninjas?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Lord_Ventnor
Aug 09, 2008 21:05:39 Can't Rogues be flavored as ninjas? I see a lot of 4E ninja homebrews, and while I respect the work people put into making them, I fail to see why they're needed. I mean, Rogues already get shuriken proficiency (and a larger damage die with them), daggers (kunai knives), and shortswords (ninja-to blades). And the Rogue gets a bunch of sneak in shadow utility powers that are very ninja-ish in concept anyway. So why try to make a ninja class when there's already a good ninja class to begin with?
#2
plague_rat
Aug 09, 2008 21:19:32 I think it's the same with pirates. For some reason everyone is obsessed with ninjas and pirates these days...
#3
generic_poster
Aug 09, 2008 22:12:16
I think it's the same with pirates. For some reason everyone is obsessed with ninjas and pirates these days...

Working backwards from the actual powers a melee ranger has (especially one with scimitars), I just made my ranger a straight out pirate. All the skills fits being able to survive out at sea, and I'd be hard pressed to find any ranger powers that specifically imply forest guide/protector (Forest Ghost seems to come closest here).

Not that I'm obsessed either one actually, it just seems to more sense than a woodsman naturally relying on a twin swords to fight.
#4
grod_the_giant
Aug 09, 2008 22:43:12 The woodsman relies on archery. I have no idea where the TWF came from. I'd say Drizz't, but I think the ranger was first (it had the two options in 3.5, at least). In 4e each class has a specialty. Paladin is Toughness. Wizard is area attacks. Ranger is archery/TWF.
#5
fabius_maximus
Aug 10, 2008 17:07:58 Ninjas are cool. Didn't you get the memo? ;)
#6
yamishinobi
Aug 10, 2008 17:31:31 wanna be a ninja or pirate?

PLAY A FREAKING ROGUE!!!!!!!!!!!!

it fits both.

Ninja=Artul dodger with powers based on stealth and control, pick daggermaster paragon path, (high crit range. fits ninja theme since ninjas more often used daggers for precision) take a few shuriken if you must.

Pirate=Brutal scoundrel with a rapier focused on murder, pillage and plunder.
#7
calronmoonflower
Aug 11, 2008 0:09:28 I don't NEED ninjas, I can quit at ant time.

The rogue or ranger, especially the monk variant, does just fine for the role. You can even multiclass for spellcasting if you want.
#8
Cohen95
Aug 11, 2008 0:40:43
Working backwards from the actual powers a melee ranger has (especially one with scimitars), I just made my ranger a straight out pirate. All the skills fits being able to survive out at sea, and I'd be hard pressed to find any ranger powers that specifically imply forest guide/protector (Forest Ghost seems to come closest here).

Not that I'm obsessed either one actually, it just seems to more sense than a woodsman naturally relying on a twin swords to fight.

I really think Pirates lean way further toward Rogue than Ranger. Think of iconic rogues, they're generally not archers (maybe a crossbow), and they rarely swing two swords (After all, if you've got a sword in each hand, which one keeps you from falling off the boat?). Brutal Scoundrel basically screams pirate, to me. Leather armor, short sword, throwing daggers...Pirate.

Also for a pirate with spellcasting, look into Pact Initiate (Star). After all, going with the general naval theme, astronomy = navigation.
#9
ChaoticGood
Aug 12, 2008 22:54:14
The woodsman relies on archery. I have no idea where the TWF came from. I'd say Drizz't, but I think the ranger was first (it had the two options in 3.5, at least). In 4e each class has a specialty. Paladin is Toughness. Wizard is area attacks. Ranger is archery/TWF.

The first print appearance of that illustrious Drow predates 3rd Edition (let alone 3.5) by a good 10 years. I don't really recall TWF Rangers earlier than 3.0, but I suppose it could have been a Players' Option kit or something like that. Foresters (the predecessor of the Ranger class) were certainly bow-focused, if my memories of my middle school gaming experiences are to be trusted.

But yes, 4e Ninjas are easy to replicate with Rogues. Pirates may want to go Fighter and pick up some Rogue-like feats instead, unless they are going for the Capt. Sparrow/Dread Pirate Roberts swashbuckling-type
#10
Cohen95
Aug 12, 2008 23:17:12
The first print appearance of that illustrious Drow predates 3rd Edition (let alone 3.5) by a good 10 years. I don't really recall TWF Rangers earlier than 3.0, but I suppose it could have been a Players' Option kit or something like that. Foresters (the predecessor of the Ranger class) were certainly bow-focused, if my memories of my middle school gaming experiences are to be trusted.

But yes, 4e Ninjas are easy to replicate with Rogues. Pirates may want to go Fighter and pick up some Rogue-like feats instead, unless they are going for the Capt. Sparrow/Dread Pirate Roberts swashbuckling-type

A Pirate's captain is easily accomplished with a Rogue MCd Warlord (This makes sense from a flavor stance, as well, since you were probably a regular pirate before you got command of your own ship). I can definitely see some pirates being Fighters, and I can see some having some Ranger-esque powers, but by and large I see both as iconic variants of the typical rogue.
#11
drackthor
Aug 13, 2008 3:07:16
But yes, 4e Ninjas are easy to replicate with Rogues. Pirates may want to go Fighter and pick up some Rogue-like feats instead, unless they are going for the Capt. Sparrow/Dread Pirate Roberts swashbuckling-type

It just seems self-defeating to have a Pirate if he doesn't fit the "swashbuckling type". ;)
#12
ambulacetus
Aug 13, 2008 3:56:23 Rogues make excellent ninjas, though I wouldn't turn down a more mystically focused ninja class.

I always saw pirate as a job description rather than a class. I.E. a pirate describes what you do (steal and plunder ships) not how you do.

Now a swashbuckling pirate could easily be handled by a ranger or rogue, but a tougher more "thugish" pirate could be a fighter. An ingenious captain might be a warlord. The sea gods and goddesses always needs to be appeased so I can a paladin or cleric of the right god serving aboard the crew. And anyone can appreciate the benefits of arcane magic (as long as the mage doesn't accidentally burn down his own ship!).

This did give me an interesting idea - I have always liked dangerous and untamed aspects of the ocean in mythology. Anyone think a warlock pact devoted to the capricious and violent spirits of the sea would be cool? Maybe someone with more power home-brewing experience can help me make it!
#13
Cohen95
Aug 13, 2008 9:06:44 Pre-release there was a huge thread outlining a "Leviathan" pact, which dealt with that sort of thing.
#14
Lord_Ventnor
Aug 13, 2008 11:00:56 Perhaps for now, you can go with re-flavored fey pact powers, and say that you made your deal with very unstable and fickle sea spirits. Interesting concept.
#15
juk380x
Aug 13, 2008 11:45:38 Brutal and artful rogues as well as TWF Rangers both fit different types of light armored melee combatants - ideal for pirates and ninjas. Warlords would make good captains and other officers, but not ninja clan leaders. I'd avoid fighters and paladins since they rely on armor and shields a lot, and you don't need a scale or plate armor when you're aboard a ship. I know scale doesn't have check penalties, but as a DM I wouldn't let anyone survive in water for long while wearing a heavy armor. Also, Ki power source will be available in the future - I'm sure there will be some classes and paragon paths which might help ninjas out
#16
Cohen95
Aug 13, 2008 11:51:04
Perhaps for now, you can go with re-flavored fey pact powers, and say that you made your deal with very unstable and fickle sea spirits. Interesting concept.

I would lean more toward the star pact. The whole "other realm" flavor seems to fit the pure incomprehensibility of the oceans.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lord_Ventnor Aug 09, 2008 21:05:39	Can't Rogues be flavored as ninjas? I see a lot of 4E ninja homebrews, and while I respect the work people put into making them, I fail to see why they're needed. I mean, Rogues already get shuriken proficiency (and a larger damage die with them), daggers (kunai knives), and shortswords (ninja-to blades). And the Rogue gets a bunch of sneak in shadow utility powers that are very ninja-ish in concept anyway. So why try to make a ninja class when there's already a good ninja class to begin with?
#2 plague_rat Aug 09, 2008 21:19:32	I think it's the same with pirates. For some reason everyone is obsessed with ninjas and pirates these days...
#3 generic_poster Aug 09, 2008 22:12:16	I think it's the same with pirates. For some reason everyone is obsessed with ninjas and pirates these days... Working backwards from the actual powers a melee ranger has (especially one with scimitars), I just made my ranger a straight out pirate. All the skills fits being able to survive out at sea, and I'd be hard pressed to find any ranger powers that specifically imply forest guide/protector (Forest Ghost seems to come closest here). Not that I'm obsessed either one actually, it just seems to more sense than a woodsman naturally relying on a twin swords to fight.
#4 grod_the_giant Aug 09, 2008 22:43:12	The woodsman relies on archery. I have no idea where the TWF came from. I'd say Drizz't, but I think the ranger was first (it had the two options in 3.5, at least). In 4e each class has a specialty. Paladin is Toughness. Wizard is area attacks. Ranger is archery/TWF.
#5 fabius_maximus Aug 10, 2008 17:07:58	Ninjas are cool. Didn't you get the memo? ;)
#6 yamishinobi Aug 10, 2008 17:31:31	wanna be a ninja or pirate? PLAY A FREAKING ROGUE!!!!!!!!!!!! it fits both. Ninja=Artul dodger with powers based on stealth and control, pick daggermaster paragon path, (high crit range. fits ninja theme since ninjas more often used daggers for precision) take a few shuriken if you must. Pirate=Brutal scoundrel with a rapier focused on murder, pillage and plunder.
#7 calronmoonflower Aug 11, 2008 0:09:28	I don't NEED ninjas, I can quit at ant time. The rogue or ranger, especially the monk variant, does just fine for the role. You can even multiclass for spellcasting if you want.
#8 Cohen95 Aug 11, 2008 0:40:43	Working backwards from the actual powers a melee ranger has (especially one with scimitars), I just made my ranger a straight out pirate. All the skills fits being able to survive out at sea, and I'd be hard pressed to find any ranger powers that specifically imply forest guide/protector (Forest Ghost seems to come closest here). Not that I'm obsessed either one actually, it just seems to more sense than a woodsman naturally relying on a twin swords to fight. I really think Pirates lean way further toward Rogue than Ranger. Think of iconic rogues, they're generally not archers (maybe a crossbow), and they rarely swing two swords (After all, if you've got a sword in each hand, which one keeps you from falling off the boat?). Brutal Scoundrel basically screams pirate, to me. Leather armor, short sword, throwing daggers...Pirate. Also for a pirate with spellcasting, look into Pact Initiate (Star). After all, going with the general naval theme, astronomy = navigation.
#9 ChaoticGood Aug 12, 2008 22:54:14	The woodsman relies on archery. I have no idea where the TWF came from. I'd say Drizz't, but I think the ranger was first (it had the two options in 3.5, at least). In 4e each class has a specialty. Paladin is Toughness. Wizard is area attacks. Ranger is archery/TWF. The first print appearance of that illustrious Drow predates 3rd Edition (let alone 3.5) by a good 10 years. I don't really recall TWF Rangers earlier than 3.0, but I suppose it could have been a Players' Option kit or something like that. Foresters (the predecessor of the Ranger class) were certainly bow-focused, if my memories of my middle school gaming experiences are to be trusted. But yes, 4e Ninjas are easy to replicate with Rogues. Pirates may want to go Fighter and pick up some Rogue-like feats instead, unless they are going for the Capt. Sparrow/Dread Pirate Roberts swashbuckling-type
#10 Cohen95 Aug 12, 2008 23:17:12	The first print appearance of that illustrious Drow predates 3rd Edition (let alone 3.5) by a good 10 years. I don't really recall TWF Rangers earlier than 3.0, but I suppose it could have been a Players' Option kit or something like that. Foresters (the predecessor of the Ranger class) were certainly bow-focused, if my memories of my middle school gaming experiences are to be trusted. But yes, 4e Ninjas are easy to replicate with Rogues. Pirates may want to go Fighter and pick up some Rogue-like feats instead, unless they are going for the Capt. Sparrow/Dread Pirate Roberts swashbuckling-type A Pirate's captain is easily accomplished with a Rogue MCd Warlord (This makes sense from a flavor stance, as well, since you were probably a regular pirate before you got command of your own ship). I can definitely see some pirates being Fighters, and I can see some having some Ranger-esque powers, but by and large I see both as iconic variants of the typical rogue.
#11 drackthor Aug 13, 2008 3:07:16	But yes, 4e Ninjas are easy to replicate with Rogues. Pirates may want to go Fighter and pick up some Rogue-like feats instead, unless they are going for the Capt. Sparrow/Dread Pirate Roberts swashbuckling-type It just seems self-defeating to have a Pirate if he doesn't fit the "swashbuckling type". ;)
#12 ambulacetus Aug 13, 2008 3:56:23	Rogues make excellent ninjas, though I wouldn't turn down a more mystically focused ninja class. I always saw pirate as a job description rather than a class. I.E. a pirate describes what you do (steal and plunder ships) not how you do. Now a swashbuckling pirate could easily be handled by a ranger or rogue, but a tougher more "thugish" pirate could be a fighter. An ingenious captain might be a warlord. The sea gods and goddesses always needs to be appeased so I can a paladin or cleric of the right god serving aboard the crew. And anyone can appreciate the benefits of arcane magic (as long as the mage doesn't accidentally burn down his own ship!). This did give me an interesting idea - I have always liked dangerous and untamed aspects of the ocean in mythology. Anyone think a warlock pact devoted to the capricious and violent spirits of the sea would be cool? Maybe someone with more power home-brewing experience can help me make it!
#13 Cohen95 Aug 13, 2008 9:06:44	Pre-release there was a huge thread outlining a "Leviathan" pact, which dealt with that sort of thing.
#14 Lord_Ventnor Aug 13, 2008 11:00:56	Perhaps for now, you can go with re-flavored fey pact powers, and say that you made your deal with very unstable and fickle sea spirits. Interesting concept.
#15 juk380x Aug 13, 2008 11:45:38	Brutal and artful rogues as well as TWF Rangers both fit different types of light armored melee combatants - ideal for pirates and ninjas. Warlords would make good captains and other officers, but not ninja clan leaders. I'd avoid fighters and paladins since they rely on armor and shields a lot, and you don't need a scale or plate armor when you're aboard a ship. I know scale doesn't have check penalties, but as a DM I wouldn't let anyone survive in water for long while wearing a heavy armor. Also, Ki power source will be available in the future - I'm sure there will be some classes and paragon paths which might help ninjas out
#16 Cohen95 Aug 13, 2008 11:51:04	Perhaps for now, you can go with re-flavored fey pact powers, and say that you made your deal with very unstable and fickle sea spirits. Interesting concept. I would lean more toward the star pact. The whole "other realm" flavor seems to fit the pure incomprehensibility of the oceans.