Whenever one makes a character in D&D, there is a 90% probability that they posses a varying level of emo-not nesscarily annoying emo, just a bit of emotional angst, such as my own Math ab MacCool-he seems to be a happy, if dodgy, person, but he is also a emotionally repressed depressive.
I was thinking: "What's with all the brooding? Why do people like making tormented heroes?"
And before you ask-No, Math may have had a pretty bad life, but he doesn't whine about it.
So, folks, am I in the minority, or is Leliel?
I'd say those friends of yours have been influenced by the media environment they matured into, just like Seeker95 was during his time.
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
That's pretty much why. Unhappy people are more interesting to read about than happy people, generally. A large part of D&D is about emulating characters you see in fiction.
To make a WAG, I'd say the angsty PCs are more involved in creating fiction, while the happy PCs are probably more involved in role-playing a sort of world-sim, see their character as an idealized version of themselves, and would rather set themselves up for happiness, given the option.
Batman= dead parents, quest for revenge
The Punisher = dead family, quest for revenge
Spiderman = uncle ben, gwen stacy = guilt + nerd rage.
Conan = Dead family, enslaved.
Ironman = alcholism, living up to daddy's abuse.
So its B.S. to blame the japanese like that.
Thats just an easy pass off. Convient excuse.
Angst.
Angst serves as a catalyst to have people go on adventures, its tangible to many people. I think because most people identify because they feel tragedy in their own lives, they'd like to do something about it but dont' know how.
The two big troupes in the game are..
I am the chosen one
and
I am the normal guy with nothing to lose. "cause I've lost everything"
More people identify with the second one cause of the angst of "nothing to lose" is close to them experiencing personal lost.
Further the majority of use don't, aren't, can't be... the chosen one.
Why is this such a popular question all of a sudden?
As luck would have it, it was already part of my DM's plan to have my father, who was also a thief, executed on inflated charges; revenge gave me the angsty motivation I needed to continue adventuring.
But who are young gamers these days? Consumers. And consumers of what? Contemporary entertainment. That includes animes and mangas, Final Fantasy, vampire stories by the truck-load, but also older stuff like 50 years+ running franchises such as Batman and Superman (movies, comics), Heavy Metal, etc. They all have tragic happenings, tormented characters (i.e. possibly angst-ridden). It's just that there's even more of this material circulating now then there was 50 years ago, and most of the new stuff is locked into a media that old geezers like us don't necessarily watch/read/play...like mangas, animes, or complex videogames like Final Fantasy. Personaly, I don't.
Interesting stories don't get written about happy people. In D&D, however, it is perfectly REASONABLE to play a happy PC, have a great time doing it. Because D&D doesn't have to be about telling epic stories. It can be just about living and having adventures in a weird fantasy world.
Thrill-seeker characters still get played.
“All happy families resemble one another, but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
I believe that you're the first person I've seen on these boards cite one of the Russian masters.
This sir, is for you.
Well, a thought just occured to me:
Whenever one makes a character in D&D, there is a 90% probability that they posses a varying level of emo-not nesscarily annoying emo, just a bit of emotional angst, such as my own Math ab MacCool-he seems to be a happy, if dodgy, person, but he is also a emotionally repressed depressive.
I was thinking: "What's with all the brooding? Why do people like making tormented heroes?"
And before you ask-No, Math may have had a pretty bad life, but he doesn't whine about it.
It's post-vampire depression. It will pass.
Anything by Shakespear, any Greek tragedy, any 20th century novel (I'm looking at you, Great Gatzby), musical, opera, story, TV show, you name it. Anybody remember the novel that I know we have to read in Canadian elementary schools called "The Pearl?" Full of angst. Kids have to read novels and short stories for school that are like that, if not that specific novel. Our dramas in all forms are steeped in angst, forever and always. It makes a great story.
Saying it's from anime/manga is so far out of left field it's barely funny. People have this weird idea that kids today are huge into anime and manga. Only partly true. I work with kids and go to college with people I consider kids (they're just out of highschool). Any influence anime has is pretty minimal from my own informal observations, especially in comparison to the Hollywood movies and TV shows these kids see.
Average intelligence is uninspiring, but a play character who is incredibly smart or unbelievably dumb, and you've got something worth talking about.
The deformed monster with a heart of gold is always more interesting than Average Joe. Likewise, Brad Pitt is always more interesting than Average Joe, although less likely to evoke an emphatic response from the audience ;).
Insane villain or sane hero? Angst or complacency? Both have possibilities but I know which story I'd choose.
I suppose it somewhat depends on how many motivations would be covered under the heading of "angst".
It's kind of why Batman sells more than Superman
Story complications aren't necessarily the makings of an angsty character. You can have a fundamentally happy character who sees bad things happen, goes to some trouble to fix them, and fixes them. No real angst there, but there is conflict, and there can be a story.
I've played the tortured, angsty characters, and the essentially well-adjusted thrill-seeking characters, and the truly righteous fist of Gawd characters. They each have their points, but angsty characters can be all silent and loner-ish, plus they get to wear cool dark clothes. That may not be ALL the appeal, but it is a part of it.
I don't know where this idea of it coming from the Japanese is coming from, seriously. It's been in the Western canon forever. Look at any bit of literature that's considered "great" these days, and you'll see loads of angst. Angst being a German word adopted by English, for that matter.
snip snip
You didn't read until post no. 5 and no. 8, did you, or skipped over? That's ok, I don't read all posts either, usually. Hey, it happens.
Mmm, just noticed I spelled mummy mommy. Nice work Penn!
You didn't read until post no. 5 and no. 8, did you, or skipped over? That's ok, I don't read all posts either, usually. Hey, it happens.
In your original post, you only cited Japanese culture for the angst. Yes, you did ammend that in later posts, but they seemed more like a "don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are..." type thing, to me at least.
Doesn't really matter, though.
In your original post, you only cited Japanese culture for the angst. Yes, you did ammend that in later posts, but they seemed more like a "don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are..." type thing, to me at least.
Doesn't really matter, though.
Would you read a 100 lines post? I wouldn't, so it can never be as complete as one would like. Maybe I should have listed a cursory number of authors like Shakespeare, or creations like Superman, before I started listing what new stuff I encountered after having entered my adult phase.
Or maybe my post structure was just crappy, difficult to tell.
As a side note, and unrelated to angst discussions....
My subconscious is full of (if that can be said) movies from over 50 years (French, Canadian, and American), the animated French comic series Les Mystérieuses Cités d'Or ("The Mysterious Cities of Gold"), french-language comic books ("bandes-dessinées") like Yoko Tsuno and L'Incal, the disturbing and fascinating erotomechanic imagery of H.R Giger's paintings, and D&D mythologies and their sense of heroic empowerment, especially the old setting of Dark Sun, to name but a few things that shaped me (for example, I bought my first H.R. Giger book at age 12...). I am also devoid of religion and its icons...as far as anyone can in a country shaped by it since its founding (*cough* massacre of natives *cough*), so those images don't shape my subconscious as much as for others.
“All happy families resemble one another, but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”
Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
That's pretty much why. Unhappy people are more interesting to read about than happy people, generally. A large part of D&D is about emulating characters you see in fiction.
I like this. Makes me think--on a more silly and totally unattached note--of the line from Lady and the Tramp, by the philosophical borzoi Boris..."Quote...'Miserable being must find more miserable being. Then, is happy.' Unquote."
In general, people tend to play RPGs like D&D for escapism, which could just as easily lead to them wanting to create a character who has bigger, more important issues than their own personal miseries, which can lead to characters that're overblown angst-monkeys. The nice part about that is, the player can have this person that's worse off than they are, and yet they can leave that stuff behind the minute they leave the game table. So it's a nice way to have that more miserable being present, but without real people suffering.
Of course, I'm mostly funning, here. ;) I just love that quote, and think there's a possible reason why it could apply here.
Then again, I've seen more than a few totally happy-go-lucky D&D characters...so who knows how applicable this is. My friends are pretty fond of hapless, cheerfully stumble-bum types of characters without a care in the world, when the mood strikes them. And a couple of them couldn't be serious or angsty if you paid them...:P
Oh, and a cookie to Pennarin just for being awesome enough to mention Mysterious Cities of Gold. That series was awesome!
Because my life is a dark abyss of agony, darkly dark place where dark things live in the dark and they come out and... dark at you, apparently...
1) the need to relate to your character exists, so you seek a common ground
2) the one thing that every person shares is the ability to hate, making that the easiest common ground to find.
3) hate + restraint = angst.
So as soon as everyone has picked out what their character believes in, and have selected what they hate on purpose or not - then they have injected some variable amount of angst. It is more evident in some characters, but is present in all of them.
Please keep your posts respectful of other members, even if they disagree with you. Also, please keep it on topic. The topic is why do players play characters full of angst, not why are players themselves full of angst.
The most angst I ever had in a character was a rogue who was raised in a very small village and was treated very badly. Since her mother was well-liked and died in childbirth, they blamed her for her mother's death. Other than that one character, the majority of my characters were happy, well-adjusted people. One was a gnome from a happy family who grew up on tales of heroic deeds and always wanted to be a paladin, but never was called into duty by a god, so she did the next best thing: she became a fighter. (That was the funnest character I ever ran.) Another was a favored soul of Pelor. She was an orphan and was raised in a Pelor ran orphanage. She was exposed to the bad stuff in life, but she never dwelled on them and refused to let them dictate how she should behave.
(Yes, I realize I have really weird taste in movies for a 21 year old, but seriously, watch these movies. Engle is also available as "The Blue Angel" with English dubs.
Maybe we're just roleplaying in different circles, but I just don't see nearly so much angst as you seem to**.
__
* half-ogre barbarian with a mercurial greatsword; he lasted one session before we threw him, and the myth of 3.0/3.5 compatability, out.
** In D&D, that is. I actually had a trend of creating incredibly damaged characters on text-based games, and I had quite an angstful Rogue during my time on World of Warcraft. Maybe I never brought the angst to tabletop because an exchange like 'Hey Ray, can I borrow five bucks for gas?' 'Sure. Er... you don't have a car.' 'It's not for driving. Clark left me, and I'm going to set myself on fire.'*** '...' is easier to inflict on people you don't have to see. Or maybe I've just grown up a bit.
*** It's okay, she had immortality-level healing factor (Painkiller Jane).
My experience is that there are usually a couple of angst-plagued characters at the table. The dark, brooding, loner bad-asses that explain themselves to no one and are fixated on inner turmoils none of us could ever dream of relating to.
They're usually annoying.
I played a bard prince in 3.5 that left his royal trappings behind and took on the adventuring life. His entire family was still alive (and rather extended) and he had many friends. At any time, he could return home and enjoy their company, since they held nothing against him and supported his decision to do what made him happy. He was jovial and easy to get along with. He never let the angsty character in the party (a rogue/warlock) get him down. His motivation was to simply live life to its fullest through exploration, and also to help others in need with his natural talents.
He was, in a way, the rock of the party, since his perspective always allowed for hope. I don't think he was an uninteresting character, and I enjoyed playing him as well (not to mention, he was rather powerful as 3.5 bards tended to be).
I guess it depends on how you play it. Perhaps any character will seem vapid and uninteresting if their defining characteristics are completely over the top, monotonous, or predictable.
Would you want to?
In all seriousness angst is an expression of conflict, conflict is the driving force of storytelling in any form. If there is a story to a campaighn then its going to have angst. Serously most people would not keep going into all those life threatening dungeons (literaly and figuretivly) if they could be happy settling down in a town somewhere and running a pub.
Now I love angst and would not think of running a game or making a PC without it. That being said, I agree with previous posters that angst needs to be realistic and not overdone. A little goes a long way.
Angst IS it does not have to DO. Be at peace with your inner soul crushing abyss.
Playing an angsty character is fine and dandy, but it isn't a replacement for conflict and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to get to do lots of extra exposition about your character.
Inner conflict is most definitely *not* the only reason to adventure. Since people mentioned Anakin, let's take a look at Obi-Wan. He led an even more adventurous life than Anakin (if only because of time) and he was a confident and tranquil warrior that had control over his emotions. Even after the death of his master Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan did not 'adventure' for angsty reasons.
What about Indiana Jones? He simply had a passion for what he did, and a sense of duty in protecting relics and sharing them with the world. We see in the Last Crusade that he has issues with his father, but he is hardly a tormented or brooding character.
I believe that angst can be a part of any character, and definitely agree with Ongorth that conflicts that do drive the story should happen in game. I don't believe angst is necessary for a game to move along though.
In my personal opinion obi-wan was not a very intresting charecter in episode 2 (then again who was). Obi-Wan had quite bit of angst in episode 3 and was in my mind more intresting (though not enough to save the movie). Indiana Jones I will give you, not much angst. Anakain give angst a bad name, he was badly written and woodenly protrayed.
I guess it comes down to the type of game you are running. If it is plot driven in lends itself to more angst. If it is an kind of a open ended world exploration game agnst is less important. I myself only run story driven games.
It is humorous listening to the older gamers who blame all the modern d&d angst on salvator and dridst (or whatever his name is)...
Of course, most of the guys I play with are in the 27-50+ range, a lot less angsty group which may explain the less angsty characters :P
Looking at classic fantasy, such as LotR, you have characters with long backstories (i.e. Aragorn and Boromir) who already have considerable latent angst, and characters who start off relatively happy and care free (i.e. the hobbits) who become angsty in the course of the story.
I personally love characters with history (gives me good hooks for side quests), so long as they're played in a fashion that doesn't cause them to interact poorly with the rest of the party. Aragorn is an excellent example of a brooding hero who works well with a party, for example.
If you are born with latent powers (Superman, the Jedis) you don't need that reason for having them and some Organization will probably find you to direct it's use into conflicts- or persecute you- being the source of conflict itself. Finding some source of power later on like Warlocks fall into the same model- though reasons for "seeking" such powers are required (and often angsty) if you don't go with random chance/destiny.
Likewise, an Organization might exist that has inherent benefits to join for normal people (Military, Divine Orders) which provide both the power and direction.
That's how you turn happy people into powerful adventurers. Problem being that going on missions for your organization removes a personal motivation for your experience.
Thieves generally require poverty or being born into a rich theiving organization to get their start in training. Wizards might study for their own reasons but need a poke to ever leave their "towers", though that may be simple as "graduating."
If you don't bring your own conflict in your backstory (revenge, atonement, seeking what's missing) or use a non-personal motive, you are left with traveling for greed or fame. One might argue you could have past conflict without angst, but now we are just qualifying our definition of the word. If you save the term "Angst" for brooding mopiness from past conflict not everyone will agree with you.
One of them (Half-Silver Human Rgr/Horizon Walker) is a dark, brooding, angsty (I suppose) sort of person. But, he doesn't talk about or even share his history. He keeps it to himself and focuses on the troubles at hand, only dreaming of when he can fulfill his oath of slaying a big, powerful Red dragon (that killed his mother...)
A different one is a Dragon Shaman. Nothing bad happened to him. He just adventures for personaly power and wealth.
Then there's the happy-go-lucky ape Cleric. He is simple and naive. He's just out to see the world. If he happens to get dragged along to hunt for riches or slay some evil things, so much the better. It gives him more knowledge of the world itself. And helps him spread the Good Word of Bananas.
So, not all characters need some dark motivation for revenge or some such. Certain people enjoy that (I know I enjoy my Rgr), but not everyone does (I know full well that my Clr is hilarious and love playing him). Really, it depends on campaign tone and personal preference.
Anxiety, anguish, neurotic fear; guilt, remorse.
If that helps at all.
Nah, I'm not blaming the Japanese, far from! They didn't invent angst in characters, like you've showed yourself...the ancient greeks probably did that ;)
QFT. Oedipus Rex, anyone? The House of Atreus? The Oddysey?