why takes these feats - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

why takes these feats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cauldos
Apr 16, 2009 22:23:17 Has anyone found a reason to take these feats:

Burning Blizzard, Dark Fury, Raging Storm, etc..

All they give is a +1 FEAT bonus to damage to two certain elements at each tier the same as Weapon Focus (+1 FEAT bonus to damage per tier) so the damage doesn't stack. Since weapon focus can be used for 99% of all the attacks (weapon and implement based) you are going to do I just don't see a point. The only few attacks that WF is not gonna be used for are a very few racial power and racial based paragon/epic powers.

Can anyone give me a reason to take these? Cause I'm thinking to up there damage for each tier to +2, +4, +6, to make them more appealing and worth the cost of only using power from these two elements. Just wondering if that would be to much damage and I should just start at +2 at heroic, than go to +3 para, and +4 at epic. Thoughts?
#2
salla
Apr 16, 2009 22:24:37 There really isn't one, but some classes don't get to use weapons as implements. Clerics, for example, only get holy symbols and you can't take Weapon Focus (Holy Symbol).
#3
cauldos
Apr 16, 2009 23:01:43 yea your right Salla, thought about that a minute after I posted than again I don't think a few of the ability score needed to get these feat match up right either. So what does anyone think about an implement focus feat? Cause I don't see why a dagger wielding warlock should get a bonus over a rod wielding one or any of the other many combination's like that out there.
#4
mplindustries
Apr 16, 2009 23:17:36 Honestly, they were probably bad ideas. I'm expecting to see the Implement Focus feat sometime soon.

As of now, the only use is for implements that are explicitly not weapons. Holy Symbol, Orb, Rod, Totem, and Wand.

Of course I also think Weapon Focus is pretty crappy as is, too. It's basically my last back up after I've taken literally everything else I might find useful. +1 damage? What am I, a Striker? (the answer is "no, I would never play a striker")
#5
_loki_
Apr 16, 2009 23:23:09 The only reason I can think of to explain why the damage bonus granted by those feats is static is because they were balanced with burst and blast attacks in mind. Most weapon attacks will hit 1, 2, or maybe 3 targets per round. Elemental powers are usually arcane powers, often zones, bursts, blasts or walls that can hit a lot more targets than any weapon attack. When you consider that the +1 damage is applied to every target of your powers and that the area of effect of said powers usually increases with level, well, you might think they actually do scale with level, just not directly like weapon focus does. You're still penalized because a weapon user will almost always use the weapon he's got weapon focus for, but as an arcane user you're more likely to pick powers with different elements, so you'll need more feats to get the bonus consistently. At least that's how I see it.
#6
vaelan
Apr 16, 2009 23:37:23 Yes, why would those feats be so useless? It almost seems as though the weapon as implement rules were just pulled out of somebody's ass!

The feats are terrible, anyway. I prefer the Implement Focus from a thematic and mechanical perspective.
#7
Tharag_Bocc
Apr 16, 2009 23:59:01
The feats are terrible, anyway. I prefer the Implement Focus from a thematic and mechanical perspective.

From a mechanical perspective I can understand the desire for Implement Focus, but I think the Elemental Focus feats are more appropriate thematically (pyrocaster, frostmage, etc).

Personally, I even prefer the Elemental Focus feats for mechanical reasons as well. Weapons are mechanically diverse and circumstances might make it preferable to use a backup weapon instead of a primary weapon, conversely since there really isn't any base mechanical difference between implements I feel it is far to easy for a caster to simply never use any implement other than their focus.
#8
Gunpowder
Apr 17, 2009 0:58:27 Actually, burning blizzard et al. are the remnants of the wizard schools(Golden wyvern, the snake one and the thunder one) WOTC had designed for wizards until the 4e preview and the internet reacted so poorly against it and the schools were removed. So I blame the fact that the feats seem out of place and bad because the context they were designed in was removed at the last moment.
#9
Istaran
Apr 17, 2009 1:12:06 FWIW, I play a dragonborn swordmage (MC wizard).

Raging storm gives a damage bonus on all my swordmage powers (I use a lightning sword), my wizard powers (only chose lightning and thunder powers) AND my breath weapon.

It works well for me, even if it doesn't work well for most.
#10
aivaruin
Apr 17, 2009 1:24:50
Has anyone found a reason to take these feats:

Burning Blizzard, Dark Fury, Raging Storm, etc..

All they give is a +1 FEAT bonus to damage to two certain elements at each tier the same as Weapon Focus (+1 FEAT bonus to damage per tier) so the damage doesn't stack. Since weapon focus can be used for 99% of all the attacks (weapon and implement based) you are going to do I just don't see a point. The only few attacks that WF is not gonna be used for are a very few racial power and racial based paragon/epic powers.

Can anyone give me a reason to take these? Cause I'm thinking to up there damage for each tier to +2, +4, +6, to make them more appealing and worth the cost of only using power from these two elements. Just wondering if that would be to much damage and I should just start at +2 at heroic, than go to +3 para, and +4 at epic. Thoughts?

Im under impression you add weapon focus damage to attacks you should not be adding it to. If power doesnot have weapon keyword you should not add weapon focus damage at all. And it is even irelevent if Implement that is weapon is used (swordmage, staff wizard). The staff can be used either as weapon (adding focus damage) or as Implement (not adding any weapom bonuses). So I dont see how wizard can find weapon focus usefull at all.

The exception to this would be if there where powers that have both weapon and implement keyword. But I know of no such powers.
#11
zakhari_dup
Apr 17, 2009 1:30:17 I don't see those types of feats as a waste. The most powerful option you could chose? No, probably not. But I like to pick and chose feats/powers based on how I would think the character would want to expand their knowledge and self worth, rather then just take feats purely for the sake of the mathematics. Then again, you don't have a lot of room to maneuver in 4E in terms of feats, so I can see where a lot of the "wasteful" talk comes from. In a game that requires you to always take the best to be the best in order to merely survive, yeah, those types of feats are certainly not the best to take overall.
#12
fromdreams_todust
Apr 17, 2009 1:49:42
Im under impression you add weapon focus damage to attacks you should not be adding it to. If power doesnot have weapon keyword you should not add weapon focus damage at all. And it is even irelevent if Implement that is weapon is used (swordmage, staff wizard). The staff can be used either as weapon (adding focus damage) or as Implement (not adding any weapom bonuses). So I dont see how wizard can find weapon focus usefull at all.

The exception to this would be if there where powers that have both weapon and implement keyword. But I know of no such powers.

I was also under the impression that this is how it works, explained above. Even if your implement happens to be a sword, but you are using it as an implement (because the power has the Implement keyword and not the Weapon keyword), you would not add the Weapon Focus extra damage.
#13
cauldos
Apr 17, 2009 1:57:27 to aiviruin: if you look here http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396 under question number 21 you will see that you do add the damage.

yes i can understand the rp reason for taking the feats but another way to rp is to focus on casting spells or using power through your weapon/implement. If I focus on using an orb or a wand why am I hindered? I can focus on an elemental type but not a implement seems silly. Not to mention the stats that go along with them. Some of them have con and dex as a requirement, yea i can see a warlock/sorc taking it but not a wizard especially when limited in a point buy. For rp reasons the stats shouldn't matter yet they do. These feats need to be looked at again and changed, as I am trying to find a way to do that without making them to good.

I am under the opinion the more focused a feat is the more it should be able to do and these elemental feats are really focused, so I am leaning toward starting there damage at +2 and going up +1 damage per tier.

Oh and Istaran I also have thought about making a char close to yours using a storm genasi swordmage, I just found to many of the lightning/thunder powers use Fort to hit. Since my group will start at 18 and that dm likes brutes I kinda had to change as seeing most fort defenses are higher than the AC on lots of brutes, I hoping arcane power changes that.
#14
aivaruin
Apr 17, 2009 4:15:25
to aiviruin: if you look here http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396 under question number 21 you will see that you do add the damage.

I stand corrected. Though I would not allow it to be used like it in my game. Killing of few feats for sake of unnessesary simplicity...

The other fix I though of would be just allow to pick Implements as weapons, but that still kills elemental focus feats...
#15
rothe
Apr 17, 2009 4:36:29 I think that there should be elementally (or other) themed feats, but they should be diverse and they should not be the damage bonus feat for casters.

Since martial characters get to use weapon focus on almost everything, the casters should get implement focus for that extra bit of damage.

Reserve the theme feats for really specific stuff like resounding thunder or winter's wrath.

Also, I think the theme idea is nice, but being able to use the elemental weapons to turn all powers into the same element spoils it for those classes who cannot do so. It makes any elemental themed feats into very good feats for weapon wielders and marginal feats for non-weapon implement users who would have to pick their powers one by one to suit their element (and gimp themselves against resisting foes).

So, my solution is either to also have "frost wand" type elements that can turn powers into cold powers, or to disallow keyword inheritance from frost weapons (only allow keywords in the original power description to matter for feats etc.).. I prefer the latter.
#16
Tharag_Bocc
Apr 17, 2009 9:33:57
Since martial characters get to use weapon focus on almost everything, the casters should get implement focus for that extra bit of damage.

That is sort of true, but a weapon user is making a much more meaningful choice when choosing to focus in a specific weapon group than a caster would be in choosing an implement. Axes, Swords, Hammers; all the different types of weapons have different proficiency bonuses, damage, and special properties property. Just choosing a weapon is a big deal for weapon users. By comparison wands, rods, orbs; most implements are functionally identical, a few of them have unique distinctions (staffs are also weapons, holy symbols can be worn instead of held), but for the most part choice of implement is pretty meaningless unless your a wizard. Some classes don't even have a choice (cleric, paladin, avenger).

To me it seems that implement selection is mostly a meaningless choice and it is only in power selection that a caster makes a choice equivalent to that made by weapon users.

Also, I think the theme idea is nice, but being able to use the elemental weapons to turn all powers into the same element spoils it for those classes who cannot do so. It makes any elemental themed feats into very good feats for weapon wielders and marginal feats for non-weapon implement users who would have to pick their powers one by one to suit their element (and gimp themselves against resisting foes).

That's why the elemental focus feats are all paired elements. With the exception of Thunder+Lightning (a highly thematic pair), few enemies resist both elements in any of the pairs.

For the sake of both simplicity and versatility, I might like to see a single feat take their place but that feat would be Elemental Focus (Choose any two elements Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Psychic, Radiant, or Thunder.), not Implement Focus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cauldos Apr 16, 2009 22:23:17	Has anyone found a reason to take these feats: Burning Blizzard, Dark Fury, Raging Storm, etc.. All they give is a +1 FEAT bonus to damage to two certain elements at each tier the same as Weapon Focus (+1 FEAT bonus to damage per tier) so the damage doesn't stack. Since weapon focus can be used for 99% of all the attacks (weapon and implement based) you are going to do I just don't see a point. The only few attacks that WF is not gonna be used for are a very few racial power and racial based paragon/epic powers. Can anyone give me a reason to take these? Cause I'm thinking to up there damage for each tier to +2, +4, +6, to make them more appealing and worth the cost of only using power from these two elements. Just wondering if that would be to much damage and I should just start at +2 at heroic, than go to +3 para, and +4 at epic. Thoughts?
#2 salla Apr 16, 2009 22:24:37	There really isn't one, but some classes don't get to use weapons as implements. Clerics, for example, only get holy symbols and you can't take Weapon Focus (Holy Symbol).
#3 cauldos Apr 16, 2009 23:01:43	yea your right Salla, thought about that a minute after I posted than again I don't think a few of the ability score needed to get these feat match up right either. So what does anyone think about an implement focus feat? Cause I don't see why a dagger wielding warlock should get a bonus over a rod wielding one or any of the other many combination's like that out there.
#4 mplindustries Apr 16, 2009 23:17:36	Honestly, they were probably bad ideas. I'm expecting to see the Implement Focus feat sometime soon. As of now, the only use is for implements that are explicitly not weapons. Holy Symbol, Orb, Rod, Totem, and Wand. Of course I also think Weapon Focus is pretty crappy as is, too. It's basically my last back up after I've taken literally everything else I might find useful. +1 damage? What am I, a Striker? (the answer is "no, I would never play a striker")
#5 _loki_ Apr 16, 2009 23:23:09	The only reason I can think of to explain why the damage bonus granted by those feats is static is because they were balanced with burst and blast attacks in mind. Most weapon attacks will hit 1, 2, or maybe 3 targets per round. Elemental powers are usually arcane powers, often zones, bursts, blasts or walls that can hit a lot more targets than any weapon attack. When you consider that the +1 damage is applied to every target of your powers and that the area of effect of said powers usually increases with level, well, you might think they actually do scale with level, just not directly like weapon focus does. You're still penalized because a weapon user will almost always use the weapon he's got weapon focus for, but as an arcane user you're more likely to pick powers with different elements, so you'll need more feats to get the bonus consistently. At least that's how I see it.
#6 vaelan Apr 16, 2009 23:37:23	Yes, why would those feats be so useless? It almost seems as though the weapon as implement rules were just pulled out of somebody's ass! The feats are terrible, anyway. I prefer the Implement Focus from a thematic and mechanical perspective.
#7 Tharag_Bocc Apr 16, 2009 23:59:01	The feats are terrible, anyway. I prefer the Implement Focus from a thematic and mechanical perspective. From a mechanical perspective I can understand the desire for Implement Focus, but I think the Elemental Focus feats are more appropriate thematically (pyrocaster, frostmage, etc). Personally, I even prefer the Elemental Focus feats for mechanical reasons as well. Weapons are mechanically diverse and circumstances might make it preferable to use a backup weapon instead of a primary weapon, conversely since there really isn't any base mechanical difference between implements I feel it is far to easy for a caster to simply never use any implement other than their focus.
#8 Gunpowder Apr 17, 2009 0:58:27	Actually, burning blizzard et al. are the remnants of the wizard schools(Golden wyvern, the snake one and the thunder one) WOTC had designed for wizards until the 4e preview and the internet reacted so poorly against it and the schools were removed. So I blame the fact that the feats seem out of place and bad because the context they were designed in was removed at the last moment.
#9 Istaran Apr 17, 2009 1:12:06	FWIW, I play a dragonborn swordmage (MC wizard). Raging storm gives a damage bonus on all my swordmage powers (I use a lightning sword), my wizard powers (only chose lightning and thunder powers) AND my breath weapon. It works well for me, even if it doesn't work well for most.
#10 aivaruin Apr 17, 2009 1:24:50	Has anyone found a reason to take these feats: Burning Blizzard, Dark Fury, Raging Storm, etc.. All they give is a +1 FEAT bonus to damage to two certain elements at each tier the same as Weapon Focus (+1 FEAT bonus to damage per tier) so the damage doesn't stack. Since weapon focus can be used for 99% of all the attacks (weapon and implement based) you are going to do I just don't see a point. The only few attacks that WF is not gonna be used for are a very few racial power and racial based paragon/epic powers. Can anyone give me a reason to take these? Cause I'm thinking to up there damage for each tier to +2, +4, +6, to make them more appealing and worth the cost of only using power from these two elements. Just wondering if that would be to much damage and I should just start at +2 at heroic, than go to +3 para, and +4 at epic. Thoughts? Im under impression you add weapon focus damage to attacks you should not be adding it to. If power doesnot have weapon keyword you should not add weapon focus damage at all. And it is even irelevent if Implement that is weapon is used (swordmage, staff wizard). The staff can be used either as weapon (adding focus damage) or as Implement (not adding any weapom bonuses). So I dont see how wizard can find weapon focus usefull at all. The exception to this would be if there where powers that have both weapon and implement keyword. But I know of no such powers.
#11 zakhari_dup Apr 17, 2009 1:30:17	I don't see those types of feats as a waste. The most powerful option you could chose? No, probably not. But I like to pick and chose feats/powers based on how I would think the character would want to expand their knowledge and self worth, rather then just take feats purely for the sake of the mathematics. Then again, you don't have a lot of room to maneuver in 4E in terms of feats, so I can see where a lot of the "wasteful" talk comes from. In a game that requires you to always take the best to be the best in order to merely survive, yeah, those types of feats are certainly not the best to take overall.
#12 fromdreams_todust Apr 17, 2009 1:49:42	Im under impression you add weapon focus damage to attacks you should not be adding it to. If power doesnot have weapon keyword you should not add weapon focus damage at all. And it is even irelevent if Implement that is weapon is used (swordmage, staff wizard). The staff can be used either as weapon (adding focus damage) or as Implement (not adding any weapom bonuses). So I dont see how wizard can find weapon focus usefull at all. The exception to this would be if there where powers that have both weapon and implement keyword. But I know of no such powers. I was also under the impression that this is how it works, explained above. Even if your implement happens to be a sword, but you are using it as an implement (because the power has the Implement keyword and not the Weapon keyword), you would not add the Weapon Focus extra damage.
#13 cauldos Apr 17, 2009 1:57:27	to aiviruin: if you look here http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396 under question number 21 you will see that you do add the damage. yes i can understand the rp reason for taking the feats but another way to rp is to focus on casting spells or using power through your weapon/implement. If I focus on using an orb or a wand why am I hindered? I can focus on an elemental type but not a implement seems silly. Not to mention the stats that go along with them. Some of them have con and dex as a requirement, yea i can see a warlock/sorc taking it but not a wizard especially when limited in a point buy. For rp reasons the stats shouldn't matter yet they do. These feats need to be looked at again and changed, as I am trying to find a way to do that without making them to good. I am under the opinion the more focused a feat is the more it should be able to do and these elemental feats are really focused, so I am leaning toward starting there damage at +2 and going up +1 damage per tier. Oh and Istaran I also have thought about making a char close to yours using a storm genasi swordmage, I just found to many of the lightning/thunder powers use Fort to hit. Since my group will start at 18 and that dm likes brutes I kinda had to change as seeing most fort defenses are higher than the AC on lots of brutes, I hoping arcane power changes that.
#14 aivaruin Apr 17, 2009 4:15:25	to aiviruin: if you look here http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396 under question number 21 you will see that you do add the damage. I stand corrected. Though I would not allow it to be used like it in my game. Killing of few feats for sake of unnessesary simplicity... The other fix I though of would be just allow to pick Implements as weapons, but that still kills elemental focus feats...
#15 rothe Apr 17, 2009 4:36:29	I think that there should be elementally (or other) themed feats, but they should be diverse and they should not be the damage bonus feat for casters. Since martial characters get to use weapon focus on almost everything, the casters should get implement focus for that extra bit of damage. Reserve the theme feats for really specific stuff like resounding thunder or winter's wrath. Also, I think the theme idea is nice, but being able to use the elemental weapons to turn all powers into the same element spoils it for those classes who cannot do so. It makes any elemental themed feats into very good feats for weapon wielders and marginal feats for non-weapon implement users who would have to pick their powers one by one to suit their element (and gimp themselves against resisting foes). So, my solution is either to also have "frost wand" type elements that can turn powers into cold powers, or to disallow keyword inheritance from frost weapons (only allow keywords in the original power description to matter for feats etc.).. I prefer the latter.
#16 Tharag_Bocc Apr 17, 2009 9:33:57	Since martial characters get to use weapon focus on almost everything, the casters should get implement focus for that extra bit of damage. That is sort of true, but a weapon user is making a much more meaningful choice when choosing to focus in a specific weapon group than a caster would be in choosing an implement. Axes, Swords, Hammers; all the different types of weapons have different proficiency bonuses, damage, and special properties property. Just choosing a weapon is a big deal for weapon users. By comparison wands, rods, orbs; most implements are functionally identical, a few of them have unique distinctions (staffs are also weapons, holy symbols can be worn instead of held), but for the most part choice of implement is pretty meaningless unless your a wizard. Some classes don't even have a choice (cleric, paladin, avenger). To me it seems that implement selection is mostly a meaningless choice and it is only in power selection that a caster makes a choice equivalent to that made by weapon users. Also, I think the theme idea is nice, but being able to use the elemental weapons to turn all powers into the same element spoils it for those classes who cannot do so. It makes any elemental themed feats into very good feats for weapon wielders and marginal feats for non-weapon implement users who would have to pick their powers one by one to suit their element (and gimp themselves against resisting foes). That's why the elemental focus feats are all paired elements. With the exception of Thunder+Lightning (a highly thematic pair), few enemies resist both elements in any of the pairs. For the sake of both simplicity and versatility, I might like to see a single feat take their place but that feat would be Elemental Focus (Choose any two elements Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Psychic, Radiant, or Thunder.), not Implement Focus.