Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kngdavid01 Jun 18, 2008 23:32:01	I just noticed a strange, disturbing anomaly; how do Warlocks become Warlocks? Do you pray to devils or star-entities or fey? No, only the gods can hear and answer prayers. Do you visit the devils to ask for their permission? No, the book p.130 says under Infernal Pact that the devils who created the pact were destroyed by Asmodeus. So obviously, you can't visit them directly. How do you become a Warlock? Obviously you MUST perform a ritual! To summon up whoever or whatever and make your pact by the Scarlet Claws of Hunger or the Iron Crown of Madness or whatever. Yet Warlocks don't have Ritual Casting as a class feature the way Wizards do. And yet, it would be impossible to BECOME a Warlock unless you had the ability to perform a ritual and make the pact. How can Warlocks not start out knowing Ritual Casting? They must know some ritual to contact and bargain with their otherworldly allies. I mean, how else could they possibly gain their powers? Is it forced on them? What, are they bitten by a radioactive devil giving them powers that come with great responsibility? I'm afraid I've got to have a House Rule that gives Warlocks Ritual Casting as a Class Feature.
#2 dragonsblood Jun 19, 2008 0:20:32	4ed isn't a simulation type of ruleset. Crunch is not defined for every bit of minutia. You can be a fisherman without Profession: Fisherman. You can sing well without Perform: singing. You can act and be tough without the Toughness feat. You can hit with a greataxe without any weapon training. Warlocks could've done the ritual for their pact, but have no idea how to do other rituals. Maybe they found a rare artifact that summoned the pact master when the character touched it. My group's warlock had his pact thrust upon him as a child like his father did, and his father's father, and his father's father's father. Or maybe they did something else entirely. You should leave it up to the player in his or her background without worrying so much about the rules being able to define it.
#3 kngdavid01 Jun 19, 2008 3:39:11	The Warlock's pact would depend upon at least the rituals to summon whatever he made his pact to. The Wizard really doesn't need this, but has it anyway. Warlocks need Ritual Casting and would at least have to know that one ritual. Besides, all the flavor text says that you have to want it and do it. Check page 129, "The pacts are complete. The rites have concluded. The signs are drawn in blood, and the seals are broken. " If rites, pacts, signs drawn in blood are not rituals, then what is? It's a deliberate choice somebody makes. If somebody forces you to make a pact, it's not a pact, you're just being held hostage. In all the precedents of myth and literature, the person making some evil pact has to want something and agree to the terms of a devil. If a devil leaps out of a hole in the ground and grabs your arm and forces you to write your name, it's not a pact. The description implies a choice made, and a ritual has to be involved, and the Warlock would have to know that one, if no others. What I'm describing will help the Warlock, far more than the wizard, he has to have free Ritual Casting just to become what he is.
#4 Neutronium_Dragon Jun 19, 2008 8:28:48	That doesn't necessarily mean that the warlock performed a ritual via his own innate knowledge. It could just as easily been that the entity in question parlayed with him and led him through whatever rites were necessary. Also, the rite which he used may not be related to the type of ritual casting represented by the feat. That's actually thematically supported - warlocks don't automatically get Ritual Casting and having Ritual Casting doesn't automatically grant you access to a pact, nor does such a ritual even appear in the list.
#5 paravel Jun 19, 2008 8:30:53	Kngdavid01, I think you're putting too much stock in the flavor text. I see no reason why an Infernal Warlock's powers shouldn't result from a pact his great-grandmother made, that specified a new Warlock every generation among her descendents. Nor any reason why a Feylock didn't get his power as an unasked gift from a Fey Lord looking for entertainment. The flavor text applies only if the GM wants it to.
#6 shivafang Jun 19, 2008 16:54:49	The Warlock joins a cabal and the leader casts the ritual in order to initiate said warlock into the cabal. Done deal. If you want your character to be a solo practitioner, then the Ritual Casting feat would be an important feat to take as your 1st level feat for thematic/background purposes.
#7 kenji508 Jun 19, 2008 17:52:10	Page 45: on verna the sample halfing warlocks flavor text. she dosnt often talk about the event that propelled her into a life of adventuring and a pact with infernal powers: without warning, a devil apeared and offred her power in exchange for a favor to be named latter. I would say the devil needs the ritual for that one, not the warlock.
#8 pizzini3000 Jun 24, 2008 16:19:43	In the game I'm playing, I have halfing rogue who first level multiclassed into warlock. My backstory included my halfling being whisked away to the feywild and coming back 4 years later with no memory of his absence. He's just left with Eyebite, and streaks of bright green in his hair. Also, glowing swirly tattoos appear when he uses his warlock abilities. Calling their source of power Pacts is just something to call them. Would you prefer the book be ambiguous every time, just to infer that idea? Maybe they should call it the warlock's possible-source-of-power-that-may-or-may-not-have-been-intentionally-gained? Also, you don't have to go with infernal/fey/star sources. They're just thematically grouped powers. Go "infernal," change the powers from fire to acid (pending DM approval), and you're a black dragon initiate.
#9 i_roll_ones Jun 24, 2008 16:54:50	Personally, I regard 4e as a DIY fluff system. Which is fine by me, as my DM likes to make his own settings and I can show up with pages of information regarding my character's homeland, and I never really cared for much of Greyhawk stuff. So I imagine that the DM will simply decide how warlocks got their power. The ritual may not be under the control of the warlock, and thus, they are not the ones casting it. As mentioned, a devil/fey/far realm...Thing might be the ones casting the ritual. Bloodlines may be enough to trigger warlock powers, should an individual care to call upon their blood. Others may cast the ritual, and then the DM can make warlocks gain the Make Other Warlocks Ritual and fudge it by saying that warlocks of a certain level can cast just that ritual. The Tiefling warlock I am playing didn't get a choice in the whole matter and is actually cursed, which could be one way to go about it. And if you don't like the flavor, ask your DM to change it. If its mechanically the same, many DM's won't mind a change here and there especially if you need to fudge things to work in a good aligned party.
#10 aaror Jun 27, 2008 8:03:41	two possibilities: 1. There are no level 1 warlocks, all warlocks are wizards or fallen clerics who used a ritual to summon a demon to get a pact 2. All warlocks have only one ritual, it summons the entity (or at least the attention of the entity) who granted them power. Yes, they can use it again, of course they can-but they can expect to pay dearly if they do so.
#11 weederguy Jun 27, 2008 8:51:56	personally, the story presented in the PHB, is probably the best source for a good idea of how Warlocks do get their power. Perhaps there is something demonic in their ancestry, that causes demons to be attracted to them, to offer them the pact. The demons sense something in them that they feel they can manipulate with the offer of power. Or perhaps something dramatic happened in their young life, and they made a vow with such conviction, in such anger, it attracted a demon that offered them power to fulfill that vow. There doesn't have to be any ritual involved for the player to be offered power in return for a pact. In fact, such ideas could really go towards filling out a DMs campaign and world, that demons and devils often seek out those that are willing to take these pacts in exchange for power. Because when you think about it, they get their power after making the pact, which means that they had no power or possibly no training before the pact, how would they know about ritual casting and such?
#12 generalhenry Jun 27, 2008 9:05:23	GET YOUR FLUFF AWAY FROM MY CRUNCH
#13 Nyarlathotep Jun 27, 2008 9:59:30	Your house rule wouldn't solve your problem anyway. Going by standard ritual rules, Would a ritual to summon a devil/powerful fey/unspeakable entitity from beyond the stars be first level? I doubt it. Personally I would say that is paragon tier at the very least. So unless you plan on letting warlocks not only hve ritual casting for free, but to have it at their level plus 10, you are probably better served by some of the other suggestions offered. I would also throw in one of my own (and is my explanation in my own campaign): It isn't really a ritual, it only seems as such. You see, the entities that grant warlock powers want suckers....errr....seekers who desire the power they can grant. So they seed a sort of magical 'pseudo-ritual' into appropriate places into the world. This pseudo-ritual isn't a ritual in the normal sense, it doesn't do anything but create a minor magical affect that draws the enitities attention and is so easy that anyone, even without ritual casting can do it if they find out how. Once the entity has had its attention drawn, it appears and makes its bargain. And once it has given the warlock its power, it need never respond to the call again because it was never under the warlocks control in the first place. You could even look at it this way, the being itself is casting a ritual to find likely prospects for being a warlock. The "ritual' cast by the wannabe warlock is just the lure created by that ritual, to make the warlock think HE is the one in control, when he is merely answering the other beings ritual. In short, the devil is summoning HIM. No ritual casting on the warlocks part necessary.
#14 quitter_dup Jun 27, 2008 11:12:21	The idea I was toying with was that you needed a ritual, and it was a high level one. Therefore low-level and not-yet warlock’s can’t do this. But rather than having the powerful entity cast it, you needed to enlist the services or another, powerful warlock. Basically, you need another powerful warlock to cast the ritual for you. He makes the contact and “brokers” the pact. I plan on somehow connecting this to the nature of the pact. Like, the older warlock might do this to save himself. If the pact is a “sell your soul for power” sort of thing, the warlock might cast the ritual for another person to use as a replacement-soul. Either one-to-one, soul-for-a-soul sort of thing or it could be If I get you ten new souls, can I have mine back?
#15 Alter_Boy Jun 27, 2008 19:53:34	Can we start talking about why the Paladin must have Ritual Casting? Because I don't see how he could establish ties to his deity without it...
#16 voran Jun 27, 2008 20:17:13	Its something they could have read off a 'scroll'. Or as mentioned, a previous ancestor fiddled with the bloodline. Gaining 'warlock powers' that scale and develop according to PC rules seem like a high order ritual, to the nature of 'if its a ritual, you should be able to cast it at level 30 and gain full warlock abilities'. The way it seems, gaining warlock powers is not so much due to what YOU did, but what the power that gave powers did to you. Who's to say the ritual you rp-read to become a warlock, wouldn't have just ended up with a consumed soul for someone else. You ended up the way you did cause 'you're a PC'. Kinda a cheap way out, but its probably the closest to truth.
#17 legdiwena Jun 28, 2008 10:23:49	The greater question is why do wizards get it as a class feature?
#18 drmorganes Jun 28, 2008 11:01:12	In the game I'm playing, I have halfing rogue who first level multiclassed into warlock. My backstory included my halfling being whisked away to the feywild and coming back 4 years later with no memory of his absence. He's just left with Eyebite, and streaks of bright green in his hair. Also, glowing swirly tattoos appear when he uses his warlock abilities. Calling their source of power Pacts is just something to call them. Would you prefer the book be ambiguous every time, just to infer that idea? Maybe they should call it the warlock's possible-source-of-power-that-may-or-may-not-have-been-intentionally-gained? Also, you don't have to go with infernal/fey/star sources. They're just thematically grouped powers. Go "infernal," change the powers from fire to acid (pending DM approval), and you're a black dragon initiate. My little Feylock has a similar story, though she was effectively kidnapped, was gone for 10 years, had her left iris turned silver, and has glyphs on the palms of her hands... I think the point here is that the how of a Warlock's pact has little to do with ritual casting as described in the PHB. In fact, though "pact" carries connotations of an agreement, I don't think a player should necessarily feel beholden to describe his warlock's background as an explicit agreement between the PC and some otherworldly power. Star Pacts particularly could stem from nothing more than sophisticated astrology, a tapping in to the knowledge left hidden in the universe as a byproduct of its creation by the Primordials. Fey Pacts in my opinion would almost always be an agreement between the player and some fae power. Folklore is chock full of foolish mortals attempting to bargain with the Fair Folk. Such agreements almost always come with a price... Infernal Pacts can follow the same line as a Fey Pact. There are just as many stories of foolish mortals bargaining with demons and devils, exchanging their souls for power in the mortal realm. There are also just as many stories - particularly in fantasy fiction - of those of infernal descent possessing frightening powers. On top of that, I think "ritual" casting is a poor turn of phrase for that particular ability. Though "ritual" simply means some form of ceremony having religious or arcane significance, our culture tends to associate it with dark bargains and devil worship. Couple the two together and I can see where the OP is coming from. However, I don't feel that warlocks as a class should be given Ritual Casting as a class bonus feat.
#19 drmorganes Jun 28, 2008 12:00:13	The greater question is why do wizards get it as a class feature? Because in the context of the game, it makes sense. Wizards are the most powerful bastions of arcane power in the game (at least from a class flavor perspective). Not only can they can perform a variety of amazing feats with the flick of a wrist (standard action spells, covering cantrips and at-will, encounter, and daily powers), they can spend a little more time to make reality sit down, shut up, and hang on using ritual magic. Clerics have a similar ability, through the use of ancient ceremonies, secret prayers, and unswerving faith they can beseech the gods themselves for some special favor. Others, too, can learn the secrets of ritual casting, but it takes more time and effort (in the form of feats) to learn. If a fighter, for example, wants to burn a feat on Skill Training (Arcana) or Arcane Initiate and Ritual Casting, he can then proceed to master various arcane rituals. Eye of Alarm, particularly, would be useful for a military commander to know to bolster the sentries around a critical portion of the camp. Enchant Item would also make sense for a skilled craftsman, like a weaponsmith or armorsmith, to learn (though this is stereotypically more common among demi-human races with racial ties to magic). Edit: See my post above for why I think "ritual magic" was a poor turn of phrase. If we stop thinking of rituals in the context of our culture(s) and instead use the term as defined in Chapter 10 of the PHB, I think it makes sense for primary casters like wizards and clerics (and probably druids as well) to have Ritual Casting as a bonus feat.
#20 Enlightened1 Jun 28, 2008 12:30:35	Here's my $0.018... 1) Wizards get their powers from study - conscious, cognitive, intellectual effort. They learn, as the foundation of their art, how arcane forces work and how to manipulate them in a variety of ways - both in long-term,slow processes as well as their quick-cast spells. Thus Ritual Casting. 2) Warlocks get their power by deals made with assorted entities. While this may entail some kind of 'ritual' (in a way not unlike a 'ritual' by which you purchase a house, or obtain a driver's license), the focus is not on a studied understanding of magical forces, it's based a mystical bond. Knowledge of magical forces is not required beyond a wilful invocation of power. Thus no Ritual Casting. 3) Clerics are trained in the knowledge of their religion - and the divine forces by which the gods' power operates - as part and parcel of their purpose, which is to act as representatives of their particular deity in the world at large. Part of that mission is to impart knowledge of the identity, intentions, purposes and desires of said deity. As part of that mission, they are enabled to perform rituals of power which demonstrate the power and intentions of their master. Thus the Ritual Casting. 3) Paladins are like clerics, but their purpose is less focused on deepening peoples' understanding of the faith, and more on defending the faith (and mroe on spreading the faith by force and example than by persuasion); they are not so much ambassadors for their deity as they are soldiers. So they do not generally need the training in theology and the deeper workings of 'divine' forces. So while they are empowered by their deity to do miraculous things, their purpose is focused on combat - so they need less understanding of how 'divine' forces operate and more faith in direct application of poers they have been granted. Thus no Ritual Casting. All that said, it is one of the pleasant attributes of D&D4 for me that *anyone* can get Ritual Casting if they really want it, just by spending a feat or two. In previous editions, you had to go full-bore multiclass if you wanted a fighter/rogue/ranger/etc. who could do such things. It opens up some very nice ideas for characters (original and from literature) which didn't really fit before: the warrior who is able to do a certain limited amount of real magic (characters in the Deryni Chronicles come to mind as one example).
#21 sigmaofdoom Jun 28, 2008 17:25:18	I would look at it being that the Warlocks, if they did perform a ritual, only studied for years in order to be able to perform that certain ritual, thus, in effect, letting them cast a high level ritual but only that ritual, as they don't have the skill set that allows them to cast general rituals. Or, as the Hellock I am playing now did, have someone else act as a middleman for the ritual. My guy ended up helping out a cleric of the Raven Queen kill a bunch of undead, which lead to the cleric asking his deity for a way to reward the (now) Warlock. I personally believe that ritual casting SHOULD come with Warlocks, as it generally defines them in other mediums, but if WotC didn't want it that way, you can justify it.
#22 Keenath Jun 28, 2008 18:54:18	No ritual has an effect even vaguely similar to a warlock pact. None of them permanently change you beyond returning your body to its natural, living state. Just because you follow a set of instructions to perform a mystical task, doesn't mean it's a ritual.
#23 voran Jun 30, 2008 21:28:34	To be fair, I can understand why it seems to be a little 'off' that Warlocks don't get rituals. I imagine we get this image of Warlocks = Serious Occultists who study the dread arts and blah blah blah. The disconnect comes that in the context of this 4.0 game, the 'serious occultists who study the dread arts' are wizards, or clerics, not Warlocks. Kinda as in the last 3.x version, warlocks were walking nukers or ...heck..actually they pretty much were strikers back then too. The guys who didn't want to take the usual paths to power, and cheated and cut corners and made neferaious deals to dread powers.
#24 Prof._Pacali Jul 01, 2008 19:32:40	See page 299 of the PHB under Using A Ritual Scroll. Problem solved.
#25 The_Harlequin Jul 04, 2008 19:03:13	Have your 'lock take Ritual Caster at level 1. Problem solved.
#26 MrCustomer Jul 05, 2008 12:23:11	I am not a master chef, nor a pastry chef, nor indeed even a line cook. I've had no training whatsoever in cooking, nor in any culinary arts. And yet I am capible of taking a Betty Crocker cake mix box and baking a perfectly good chocolate cake. Why exactly does a Warlock need to know indepth knowledge of rituals in order to perform just one ritual in his entire life? He doesn't even need to know that one ritual either. There are many ways to make a pact or have the ritual done. -Having someone who knows rituals perform it at his behest. -Travel to a shrine where there is no need for rituals to contact the being -Contact the being through an artifact -Be a member of a cult who does the ritual for her -Such a being comes to the warlock to tempt him to make the pact. -Ritual done to him as a child (comes from a lineage of warlocks) -The ritual being able to be followed by wrote, from a book, doesn't require any specific skill, is the only ritual she will ever use and thus doesn't need to spend years learning indepth knowledge of rituals to cast this one single ritual in her entire life. -Mail order, send a check to this particular address and you will receive the contract via courier within 2-3 weeks, please read the entire contract from cover to cover to ensure there are no unexpected errors. Signature must be witnessed and signed in blood, Notorization required, extra lawyer fees not included and must be paid to your attorny seperately.