Wizard Laws (per DM) (so much less fun than Man Laws) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Wizard Laws (per DM) (so much less fun than Man Laws)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
holy_gnolly
Apr 13, 2008 20:58:16 Hi guys,

I just needed some clarification on some wizard rules since this is the first time I've been playing a wizard and I just feel like the rules that have been presented to me by the GM seem harsh and just don't feel right, but I wanted to get your feedback on them. My GM is a very reasonable person and is a great GM but I just feel like a lot of these rules he's been telling me about the wizard class I'm playing just doesn't seem right.

1) He told me that Sculpt Spell only allows me to move squares around instead of sculpting the spell into the various shapes that the feat says are allowed. For instance, I had a sculpted grease memorized. I tried to cast it as a 20 ft. radius ball. He said all I could do was shape the 10ft. square normally given by the grease spell into 4 ft. squares and that I couldn't do the ball shape with Sculpt Spell. From the description of the feat though, it seems like I could shape any area spell into the shapes mentioned, even if it gives me "extra" squares by doing so. For instance, grease should give me only one 10 ft. square normally, but if I do a sculpted grease into the cone shape, it would give me a lot more squares. What is the proper interpretation of Sculpt Spell? It really hurt me last combat and I almost died multiple times because I had a few spells sculpted at higher level slots, which proved practically useless because of the way my GM ruled Sculpt Spell works.

2) He also told me I have to pay for each of the 2 free spells I learn when I gain a level and also the spells I got at 1st level. I'm currently at lvl 5 so he said he would allow me to have gold debt for all the spells I learned through leveling up until then, but that seems awfully expensive, especially since I started with a lot of lvl 1 spells. I understand paying for the spellbook, but should you also have to pay for the 2 spells you learn from leveling each time? If that's true, I'm already in massive debt without ever having purchased anything.

3) I cast invisibility during two combats so far and each time bad guys were able to pinpoint exactly where I was in a pitch battle between dozens of foes by doing listen checks. Also, when one bad guy made a listen check (DC 20), all the others were able to zone in on me exactly and take a swing at me too. For some reason, that doesn't seem to make sense to me on a lot of levels. First being, in a pitch battle, should they be able to make a listen check to know exactly where I am (even though I'm like 30 - 60 feet away from them and they're usually closer to the main combat which is probably pretty noisy) and hit me with complete accuracy? It's not like I was stepping in puddles or making any more noises than just running. Also, just because one bad guy makes a check, should the others be able to follow suit from him and just be able to whack me too without making a listen check since now they "know" where I am? Somehow, this version of invisibility seems pretty harsh since I spent about half of the combat just running for my life from 5 or 6 baddies since they knew where I was most of the time even though I had only cast one spell after being invisible even though I spent I'd say around 5 or 6 rounds just being attacked and runnning away while being invisible.

4) This isn't really a rules clarification, but what spells do you suggest I take at lvl 6 wizard? Right now, I'm a conjurist with no attack spells and so I was leaning towards fireball. I'm also leaning towards taking fly as my other spell. I have a scroll of stinking cloud and so could learn that without using it up as one of my two leveling up spells and I also took haste (which was great) and slow (which I have major buyer's remorse and don't see much use for now but oh well). Any suggestions based on the rules that my GM's outlined above for the spells and tactics above?

Any comments would be much appreciated. I might very well be wrong and my GM may be right since I admit that I know the least about rules out of everyone in my group (and spend the least amount of time learning about the game) but something about all these rules doesn't sound right to me because otherwise I'd always be in debt, sculpt spell would be a pretty crappy feat, and invisibility wouldn't be all that effective.

Cheers,

A Frustrated Gnoll
#2
zeratulcraft
Apr 13, 2008 21:14:21 Sculpt Spell lets you change the spell shape into any of the forms described.

You don't pay spells learned at level up, they're even described as free in the wizard spellbook feature.

The invisibility thing is all hax, even if you can pinpoint the square, you have 50% miss chance. And pinpointing the square is something nigh impossible.

Haste is kickass, long as you have Haste you're fine.
#3
Neutronium_Dragon
Apr 13, 2008 21:19:43 Given your questions, and the correct answers above, I would suggest that the answer to #4 should be: A different character. Your DM seems bent on making your life difficult as a wizard with his "interpretations".
#4
calronmoonflower
Apr 13, 2008 21:25:36 Just remember the DM has say even over the Rules As Written
Ask him to write all his house rules.

1). The DM has no bases for that ruling.

2). By the rules you get them for free. See page 179 of the Player's Handbook. It directly says that you do not have to pay for these.

3). You can find a invisible opponent with either a spot or listen check, but they still have total concealment.
#5
iserith
Apr 13, 2008 21:33:14
Hi guys,

Hi.

2) He also told me I have to pay for each of the 2 free spells I learn when I gain a level and also the spells I got at 1st level. I'm currently at lvl 5 so he said he would allow me to have gold debt for all the spells I learned through leveling up until then, but that seems awfully expensive, especially since I started with a lot of lvl 1 spells. I understand paying for the spellbook, but should you also have to pay for the 2 spells you learn from leveling each time? If that's true, I'm already in massive debt without ever having purchased anything.

He could be doing it for "flavor" especially if it's a low-magic setting. Tell him while you're training that you make and sell scrolls at profit to account for not having to pay for your spells granted at leveling up. Or he could just read the actual rule in the PHB.

3) I cast invisibility during two combats so far and each time bad guys were able to pinpoint exactly where I was in a pitch battle between dozens of foes by doing listen checks. Also, when one bad guy made a listen check (DC 20), all the others were able to zone in on me exactly and take a swing at me too. For some reason, that doesn't seem to make sense to me on a lot of levels. First being, in a pitch battle, should they be able to make a listen check to know exactly where I am (even though I'm like 30 - 60 feet away from them and they're usually closer to the main combat which is probably pretty noisy) and hit me with complete accuracy? It's not like I was stepping in puddles or making any more noises than just running. Also, just because one bad guy makes a check, should the others be able to follow suit from him and just be able to whack me too without making a listen check since now they "know" where I am? Somehow, this version of invisibility seems pretty harsh since I spent about half of the combat just running for my life from 5 or 6 baddies since they knew where I was most of the time even though I had only cast one spell after being invisible even though I spent I'd say around 5 or 6 rounds just being attacked and runnning away while being invisible.

Spot check DC 20 to notice an active invisible creature. Spot check DC 40 to pinpoint. Even then, 50/50 miss chance.

Your Move Silently versus their Listen. If they win, they know you're there. If they win by +20, they pinpoint.

Both of these checks have modifiers based on the situation, including distance, obstacles, ambient noise/lighting, etc.

4) This isn't really a rules clarification, but what spells do you suggest I take at lvl 6 wizard? Right now, I'm a conjurist with no attack spells and so I was leaning towards fireball. I'm also leaning towards taking fly as my other spell. I have a scroll of stinking cloud and so could learn that without using it up as one of my two leveling up spells and I also took haste (which was great) and slow (which I have major buyer's remorse and don't see much use for now but oh well). Any suggestions based on the rules that my GM's outlined above for the spells and tactics above?

Slow is awesome against creatures with lots of attacks like big monsters or higher-level NPCs. Drive him crazy with glitterdust, grease, and ray of enfeeblement.
#6
rosisha
Apr 14, 2008 9:47:35 What we have here is another case of a GM who feels that the wizard is an evil menace who needs to be destroyed. I'd suggest you ask the GM what his favorite class is and play that, and reap all the benefits and rewards he will shower down on it. Wizards are not tolerated.

I had a GM like that, so I multiclassed out of wizard (if you retired, you had to start again at 1). This is what I had to put up with:

1) My spellbook was stolen, my reserve copy was stolen, and the theif was able to avoid all the traps that I had cast into it. This happened before every major adventure.

2) Anti-magic stones: these are alchemical items that will stop a casters ability to use magic. I would usually get hit with one early on in a fight, round 1 or round 2. "Well you're not wearing armor, so the enemy knows you're a caster and they would naturally target you. BUt you're not wearing armor, so it is easy to hit you." I multiclassed rogue and started to wear armor, and somehow, they still always threw those things at me.

3) My personal favorite: "Magical energy seems really weak today, every spell you cast will have a 20% failure chance." Now that means that one in five spells should fail right? Wrong! Try 4 out of 5!

4) Enemies who all had massive spell resistance. Like goblins. Yup. Goblins. They are resistant to spells just in case you didn't know.

Yeah, I have no sympathy for people who think Wizards are overpowered, as all the arguements back and forth ignore the fundamental fact that each and every primary class is needed in a balanced party, and it is a cooperative social game. GMs who try to "fix" the balance issue can pretty much go spin.

I'd suggest you offer that to your GM, while you're packing up your stuff and taking off.

Rosisha
#7
dunsel
Apr 14, 2008 14:13:41 1) Sculpt spells is cool but it does have limited use. Your DM has limited it even further. A grease spell has 4 5' squares.

2) As DM he has the right to charge you for those spells even though they are supposed to be free. I would insist it was role-played so you know your mentor and can bargin. A DM who just says you have to pay b/c I said so is short changing you role-playing opportunities.

3) Casting a spell when you are invisible makes you much easier to find but still not as easy as your DM has decided. A spell is usually cast at a normal speaking level. If your move silently is only +3 and you are 30 feet away (unless my math is incorrect and it usual is) that would be and additional +2 per 10 feet for a total of +3+6+20= 29. Now we take into effect the speaking part which I would say is +4 for the bad guys. (don't have the books or srd handy) I would also rule, normal speech is inaudible past 60 feet but that doesn't count for this. OK, so we have 29-4=25!!!! If you are outdoors, this DC would be even higher. Battle even higher!

So what level rogues/druids are these guys? Listen is wisdom based. Let's say the npc listening is a 10th level rogue with a 14 wisdom. His max bonus is +15 (13 ranks+2 wis). He needs to roll a 20 to hear you!!!!!!

For fighters and other classes where Listen is not a class skill and you are looking at a MAJOR DM fiat! While it is true someone can point to where you "might" be he had better not do anything else that round and his directions might still be misinterpreted by the others. I would secretly roll an intelligence check for groups of 5 each round. Also, as previously stated, they will still miss 50% of the time! Get yourself Protection from Arrows my friend.

Your DM does not like wizards. Find out his favorite class and roll that up!
#8
holy_gnolly
Apr 14, 2008 15:32:01 Hi guys,

Thanks for all the great input. I know it may have seemed like it from my previous post, but I don't think my DM "hates" wizards. I think he may have been unclear on some rules, so I think it's great you guys included page numbers for some of the rulings so I can show him exactly where it explains how the rules should be played out. Also, I doubt he thinks my wizard is "overpowered" since his only attack spell is an acid arrow attack (which he rarely memorizes). So now I definitely have some page proof for the Sculpt Spell ruling and the spells per leveling cost ruling but is there a page or specific pages that address how invisibility rules should be treated? I just want to be able to pinpoint a set of rules to refer to for my GM for that. Thanks again for all your help. And, just *****in for a bit, did a world of good too hehe. I'm no longer frustrated and I guess I just needed to vent a teeny tiny bit.

Cheers,

Gnoll
#9
iserith
Apr 14, 2008 15:37:31
is there a page or specific pages that address how invisibility rules should be treated? I just want to be able to pinpoint a set of rules to refer to for my GM for that.

DMG page 295. I know that page well.
#10
the_black_hand
Apr 15, 2008 1:31:32
Hi guys,

Thanks for all the great input. I know it may have seemed like it from my previous post, but I don't think my DM "hates" wizards. I think he may have been unclear on some rules, so I think it's great you guys included page numbers for some of the rulings so I can show him exactly where it explains how the rules should be played out. Also, I doubt he thinks my wizard is "overpowered" since his only attack spell is an acid arrow attack (which he rarely memorizes). So now I definitely have some page proof for the Sculpt Spell ruling and the spells per leveling cost ruling but is there a page or specific pages that address how invisibility rules should be treated? I just want to be able to pinpoint a set of rules to refer to for my GM for that. Thanks again for all your help. And, just *****in for a bit, did a world of good too hehe. I'm no longer frustrated and I guess I just needed to vent a teeny tiny bit.

Cheers,

Gnoll

Your DM is an idiot, I am willing to bet that he doesn't allow the raw and says his rules are better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 holy_gnolly Apr 13, 2008 20:58:16	Hi guys, I just needed some clarification on some wizard rules since this is the first time I've been playing a wizard and I just feel like the rules that have been presented to me by the GM seem harsh and just don't feel right, but I wanted to get your feedback on them. My GM is a very reasonable person and is a great GM but I just feel like a lot of these rules he's been telling me about the wizard class I'm playing just doesn't seem right. 1) He told me that Sculpt Spell only allows me to move squares around instead of sculpting the spell into the various shapes that the feat says are allowed. For instance, I had a sculpted grease memorized. I tried to cast it as a 20 ft. radius ball. He said all I could do was shape the 10ft. square normally given by the grease spell into 4 ft. squares and that I couldn't do the ball shape with Sculpt Spell. From the description of the feat though, it seems like I could shape any area spell into the shapes mentioned, even if it gives me "extra" squares by doing so. For instance, grease should give me only one 10 ft. square normally, but if I do a sculpted grease into the cone shape, it would give me a lot more squares. What is the proper interpretation of Sculpt Spell? It really hurt me last combat and I almost died multiple times because I had a few spells sculpted at higher level slots, which proved practically useless because of the way my GM ruled Sculpt Spell works. 2) He also told me I have to pay for each of the 2 free spells I learn when I gain a level and also the spells I got at 1st level. I'm currently at lvl 5 so he said he would allow me to have gold debt for all the spells I learned through leveling up until then, but that seems awfully expensive, especially since I started with a lot of lvl 1 spells. I understand paying for the spellbook, but should you also have to pay for the 2 spells you learn from leveling each time? If that's true, I'm already in massive debt without ever having purchased anything. 3) I cast invisibility during two combats so far and each time bad guys were able to pinpoint exactly where I was in a pitch battle between dozens of foes by doing listen checks. Also, when one bad guy made a listen check (DC 20), all the others were able to zone in on me exactly and take a swing at me too. For some reason, that doesn't seem to make sense to me on a lot of levels. First being, in a pitch battle, should they be able to make a listen check to know exactly where I am (even though I'm like 30 - 60 feet away from them and they're usually closer to the main combat which is probably pretty noisy) and hit me with complete accuracy? It's not like I was stepping in puddles or making any more noises than just running. Also, just because one bad guy makes a check, should the others be able to follow suit from him and just be able to whack me too without making a listen check since now they "know" where I am? Somehow, this version of invisibility seems pretty harsh since I spent about half of the combat just running for my life from 5 or 6 baddies since they knew where I was most of the time even though I had only cast one spell after being invisible even though I spent I'd say around 5 or 6 rounds just being attacked and runnning away while being invisible. 4) This isn't really a rules clarification, but what spells do you suggest I take at lvl 6 wizard? Right now, I'm a conjurist with no attack spells and so I was leaning towards fireball. I'm also leaning towards taking fly as my other spell. I have a scroll of stinking cloud and so could learn that without using it up as one of my two leveling up spells and I also took haste (which was great) and slow (which I have major buyer's remorse and don't see much use for now but oh well). Any suggestions based on the rules that my GM's outlined above for the spells and tactics above? Any comments would be much appreciated. I might very well be wrong and my GM may be right since I admit that I know the least about rules out of everyone in my group (and spend the least amount of time learning about the game) but something about all these rules doesn't sound right to me because otherwise I'd always be in debt, sculpt spell would be a pretty crappy feat, and invisibility wouldn't be all that effective. Cheers, A Frustrated Gnoll
#2 zeratulcraft Apr 13, 2008 21:14:21	Sculpt Spell lets you change the spell shape into any of the forms described. You don't pay spells learned at level up, they're even described as free in the wizard spellbook feature. The invisibility thing is all hax, even if you can pinpoint the square, you have 50% miss chance. And pinpointing the square is something nigh impossible. Haste is kickass, long as you have Haste you're fine.
#3 Neutronium_Dragon Apr 13, 2008 21:19:43	Given your questions, and the correct answers above, I would suggest that the answer to #4 should be: A different character. Your DM seems bent on making your life difficult as a wizard with his "interpretations".
#4 calronmoonflower Apr 13, 2008 21:25:36	Just remember the DM has say even over the Rules As Written Ask him to write all his house rules. 1). The DM has no bases for that ruling. 2). By the rules you get them for free. See page 179 of the Player's Handbook. It directly says that you do not have to pay for these. 3). You can find a invisible opponent with either a spot or listen check, but they still have total concealment.
#5 iserith Apr 13, 2008 21:33:14	Hi guys, Hi. 2) He also told me I have to pay for each of the 2 free spells I learn when I gain a level and also the spells I got at 1st level. I'm currently at lvl 5 so he said he would allow me to have gold debt for all the spells I learned through leveling up until then, but that seems awfully expensive, especially since I started with a lot of lvl 1 spells. I understand paying for the spellbook, but should you also have to pay for the 2 spells you learn from leveling each time? If that's true, I'm already in massive debt without ever having purchased anything. He could be doing it for "flavor" especially if it's a low-magic setting. Tell him while you're training that you make and sell scrolls at profit to account for not having to pay for your spells granted at leveling up. Or he could just read the actual rule in the PHB. 3) I cast invisibility during two combats so far and each time bad guys were able to pinpoint exactly where I was in a pitch battle between dozens of foes by doing listen checks. Also, when one bad guy made a listen check (DC 20), all the others were able to zone in on me exactly and take a swing at me too. For some reason, that doesn't seem to make sense to me on a lot of levels. First being, in a pitch battle, should they be able to make a listen check to know exactly where I am (even though I'm like 30 - 60 feet away from them and they're usually closer to the main combat which is probably pretty noisy) and hit me with complete accuracy? It's not like I was stepping in puddles or making any more noises than just running. Also, just because one bad guy makes a check, should the others be able to follow suit from him and just be able to whack me too without making a listen check since now they "know" where I am? Somehow, this version of invisibility seems pretty harsh since I spent about half of the combat just running for my life from 5 or 6 baddies since they knew where I was most of the time even though I had only cast one spell after being invisible even though I spent I'd say around 5 or 6 rounds just being attacked and runnning away while being invisible. Spot check DC 20 to notice an active invisible creature. Spot check DC 40 to pinpoint. Even then, 50/50 miss chance. Your Move Silently versus their Listen. If they win, they know you're there. If they win by +20, they pinpoint. Both of these checks have modifiers based on the situation, including distance, obstacles, ambient noise/lighting, etc. 4) This isn't really a rules clarification, but what spells do you suggest I take at lvl 6 wizard? Right now, I'm a conjurist with no attack spells and so I was leaning towards fireball. I'm also leaning towards taking fly as my other spell. I have a scroll of stinking cloud and so could learn that without using it up as one of my two leveling up spells and I also took haste (which was great) and slow (which I have major buyer's remorse and don't see much use for now but oh well). Any suggestions based on the rules that my GM's outlined above for the spells and tactics above? Slow is awesome against creatures with lots of attacks like big monsters or higher-level NPCs. Drive him crazy with glitterdust, grease, and ray of enfeeblement.
#6 rosisha Apr 14, 2008 9:47:35	What we have here is another case of a GM who feels that the wizard is an evil menace who needs to be destroyed. I'd suggest you ask the GM what his favorite class is and play that, and reap all the benefits and rewards he will shower down on it. Wizards are not tolerated. I had a GM like that, so I multiclassed out of wizard (if you retired, you had to start again at 1). This is what I had to put up with: 1) My spellbook was stolen, my reserve copy was stolen, and the theif was able to avoid all the traps that I had cast into it. This happened before every major adventure. 2) Anti-magic stones: these are alchemical items that will stop a casters ability to use magic. I would usually get hit with one early on in a fight, round 1 or round 2. "Well you're not wearing armor, so the enemy knows you're a caster and they would naturally target you. BUt you're not wearing armor, so it is easy to hit you." I multiclassed rogue and started to wear armor, and somehow, they still always threw those things at me. 3) My personal favorite: "Magical energy seems really weak today, every spell you cast will have a 20% failure chance." Now that means that one in five spells should fail right? Wrong! Try 4 out of 5! 4) Enemies who all had massive spell resistance. Like goblins. Yup. Goblins. They are resistant to spells just in case you didn't know. Yeah, I have no sympathy for people who think Wizards are overpowered, as all the arguements back and forth ignore the fundamental fact that each and every primary class is needed in a balanced party, and it is a cooperative social game. GMs who try to "fix" the balance issue can pretty much go spin. I'd suggest you offer that to your GM, while you're packing up your stuff and taking off. Rosisha
#7 dunsel Apr 14, 2008 14:13:41	1) Sculpt spells is cool but it does have limited use. Your DM has limited it even further. A grease spell has 4 5' squares. 2) As DM he has the right to charge you for those spells even though they are supposed to be free. I would insist it was role-played so you know your mentor and can bargin. A DM who just says you have to pay b/c I said so is short changing you role-playing opportunities. 3) Casting a spell when you are invisible makes you much easier to find but still not as easy as your DM has decided. A spell is usually cast at a normal speaking level. If your move silently is only +3 and you are 30 feet away (unless my math is incorrect and it usual is) that would be and additional +2 per 10 feet for a total of +3+6+20= 29. Now we take into effect the speaking part which I would say is +4 for the bad guys. (don't have the books or srd handy) I would also rule, normal speech is inaudible past 60 feet but that doesn't count for this. OK, so we have 29-4=25!!!! If you are outdoors, this DC would be even higher. Battle even higher! So what level rogues/druids are these guys? Listen is wisdom based. Let's say the npc listening is a 10th level rogue with a 14 wisdom. His max bonus is +15 (13 ranks+2 wis). He needs to roll a 20 to hear you!!!!!! For fighters and other classes where Listen is not a class skill and you are looking at a MAJOR DM fiat! While it is true someone can point to where you "might" be he had better not do anything else that round and his directions might still be misinterpreted by the others. I would secretly roll an intelligence check for groups of 5 each round. Also, as previously stated, they will still miss 50% of the time! Get yourself Protection from Arrows my friend. Your DM does not like wizards. Find out his favorite class and roll that up!
#8 holy_gnolly Apr 14, 2008 15:32:01	Hi guys, Thanks for all the great input. I know it may have seemed like it from my previous post, but I don't think my DM "hates" wizards. I think he may have been unclear on some rules, so I think it's great you guys included page numbers for some of the rulings so I can show him exactly where it explains how the rules should be played out. Also, I doubt he thinks my wizard is "overpowered" since his only attack spell is an acid arrow attack (which he rarely memorizes). So now I definitely have some page proof for the Sculpt Spell ruling and the spells per leveling cost ruling but is there a page or specific pages that address how invisibility rules should be treated? I just want to be able to pinpoint a set of rules to refer to for my GM for that. Thanks again for all your help. And, just *****in for a bit, did a world of good too hehe. I'm no longer frustrated and I guess I just needed to vent a teeny tiny bit. Cheers, Gnoll
#9 iserith Apr 14, 2008 15:37:31	is there a page or specific pages that address how invisibility rules should be treated? I just want to be able to pinpoint a set of rules to refer to for my GM for that. DMG page 295. I know that page well.
#10 the_black_hand Apr 15, 2008 1:31:32	Hi guys, Thanks for all the great input. I know it may have seemed like it from my previous post, but I don't think my DM "hates" wizards. I think he may have been unclear on some rules, so I think it's great you guys included page numbers for some of the rulings so I can show him exactly where it explains how the rules should be played out. Also, I doubt he thinks my wizard is "overpowered" since his only attack spell is an acid arrow attack (which he rarely memorizes). So now I definitely have some page proof for the Sculpt Spell ruling and the spells per leveling cost ruling but is there a page or specific pages that address how invisibility rules should be treated? I just want to be able to pinpoint a set of rules to refer to for my GM for that. Thanks again for all your help. And, just *****in for a bit, did a world of good too hehe. I'm no longer frustrated and I guess I just needed to vent a teeny tiny bit. Cheers, Gnoll Your DM is an idiot, I am willing to bet that he doesn't allow the raw and says his rules are better.