Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lloyd_irving May 14, 2008 15:05:26	My D&D group is starting a new campaign and we're all making new characters. I figured I'd try something new and take the Mystic Theurge path since it seems interesting to be able to have all those spell options and since I'm always the only spellcaster in the group anyway. I'm currently undecided about whether to use druid or cleric levels in order to meet the divine spellcasting requirement. On the one hand, clerics have the most powerful defensive and necromantic spells, which is a plus since my wizard is a conjuror (I like conjuration spells) with abjuration and necromancy as his forbidden schools, and clerics get access to other powerful buff and summoning spells. On the other hand, most spells on the druid's spell list have interesting effects than I can certainly see being useful when cast in combination with some wizard spells. There are 3 other people in my D&D group, a fighter, a ranger, and I don't know what class the 3rd person will be but it will probably be a rogue. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but my character is going to be a half-elf with Spell Focus (conjuration) as his 1st level feat. I am allowed to use all of the Complete sourcebooks as well as the Spell Compendium. If I could hear from someone who played a Mystic Theurge before, that would be a real help. I'm also going to have a neutral good alignment.
#2 shaggy_shaggs May 14, 2008 15:09:36	Personally I'd go druid 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 4/arcane heirophant 10, but that doesn't seem to be an especially popular choice. Having both 9th-level arcane spells and 9th-level divine spells pre-epic is cool, but you get them really late. EDIT: Also, Lloyd Irving was cool but I always preferred Presea Combatir as the main frontliner in active duty. :D
#3 lloyd_irving May 14, 2008 15:12:28	I don't have access to Races of the Wild.
#4 shaggy_shaggs May 14, 2008 15:22:54	Mmmm, I think I'd still stick with druid over cleric for such a character. More skill points (only relevant for a few levels, true), better class skills, and if you're starting with Spell Focus (Conjuration) you're only one feat away from Augment Summoning, which would go nicely with your spontaneous summoning ability. Furthermore when you need spontaneous band-aids you can save some actions (summon a unicorn with one action and let it pull your buddy out of danger and heal him while you keep the fight going) compared to doing it as a cleric. Cleric would be attractive for turn undead to power divine feats (divine metamagic is just plain unfair), but as is you're going to need Int and Wis for magic use, and Con for hp since your hitdice will be miniscule. You can't really afford any Cha to have a lot of turn attempts to burn.
#5 lloyd_irving May 14, 2008 15:30:28	I'm not sure if this is relevant, but our starting stats are 18,17,16,15,14, and 13, arranged how we like. Just curious though, are there any spells in paticular that make a druid prefferable over a cleric? Because I'm looking through the Spell Compendiumand the cleric's list has plenty of spells that stand out in my mind. Yea, I liked Presea too. Favorite was Genis and Zelos though.
#6 shaggy_shaggs May 14, 2008 15:48:43	Druid-specific spells better than cleric-specific spells would be best left to posters more practiced with magic than myself, but something thing to ask yourself about the spells on both sides is "How much of this can be duplicated or close enough with my wizard spells? And are those duplications just redundant, or do they free up wizard slots at that level to take something I'd like to have more?" Another thing to consider is that druids can do more with their spontaneous spell conversion than clerics can. Summon nature's ally can provide some magic support, spare tanks/blockers/attackers, create distractions, spring traps, provide transportation, help you move heavy loads/obstacles... spontaneous cure can heal hp damage, spontaneous inflict can deal hp damage.
#7 lloyd_irving May 14, 2008 16:07:47	I never thought about comparing the druid/cleric spells to wizard ones, I've just bee comparing them with each other. That might make this easier. Thank you very much for the suggestion.
#8 gargs454 May 14, 2008 16:09:09	A lot of it really depends on what you want your character to do. If you want him to be summoning critters, then you absolutely should go with the Druid. If your more concerned with healing power and versatility, I would likely go with the cleric. Somethings to keep in mind though: 1. I would definitely get the levels needed in clr/drd first, as this will give you access to better hit points and armor early on. Once you meet that requirement, then go mage. 2. Keep in mind that Spell Focus (Conjuration) only has one purpose -- Augment Summoning. If you are still convinced you want to take that feat, then I would definitely recommend Druid as your first feat is really only good for eventually letting you summon better critters. 3. Depending on your motives for your prohibited schools, you may want to consider prohibitied Evocation instead of one of the other two. Evocation has the "sexy" spells but most of them are a) variable by caster level and b) lower level spells. This means that they are easier to save against. Additionally, you will be at least 8th level before you get Fireball and then it will only deal 5d6 unless you take Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane. 4. Get Practiced spellcaster to improve your caster level. 5. Just a side note here, MT's are fairly neat at high levels, but they take a heck of a long time to get rolling. If you're the only caster you may not notice as much, but it is a slow build.
#9 shaggy_shaggs May 14, 2008 16:15:32	One duplication I'd be looking hard at is shapechange. Excluding specific domains you may not have, druids and wizards can do it, clerics can't, but that one doesn't seem redundant to me. Wizards can time stop and neither druids nor clerics can. I'd rather use my divine slots for shapechange and keep my wizard slots available for extra rounds to buff like a crazy bastard or rearrange the battlefield to suit my tastes.
#10 Bloodsoul May 14, 2008 16:15:48	Would Archivist be allowed? Divine spells with Int instead of Wis. I know it's not from those books, but better to use one stat than two (though you'd then have to carry around two spellbooks <_<).
#11 gentlemanic May 14, 2008 16:21:04	You might want to look into complete scoundrel, it has a few cool low level druids spells. Otherwise, I'd let it depend on theme of the character, both of the classes have their good points and you have plenty of good ability scores. Maybe you can go for the variant cleric from Unearthed arcana? You can find it online (SRD).
#12 lloyd_irving May 14, 2008 16:44:39	I've looked over the cleric and druid spell lists and it turns out that most of the spells I was really interested in were either druid/cleric, cleric/wizard, or druid only. The main exception to this is the Visage of the Diety line but I can live without that. I think I'll go wizard/druid/mystic theurge. Thank you all for the advice.
#13 high_octane May 15, 2008 10:38:39	If you are getting spell focus (conjuration) that should allow you to get that feat that gives your summoned creatures +4 str +4 con. Very good for summoning. Druids have the best summoning ability, being able to spontaneously summon natures ally, which summons stronger creatures than an equal level summon creature spell.
#14 BW0222 May 15, 2008 13:36:46	Lloyd_Irving, You need to step back and two a comparison between the spells/abilities and more importantly how useful they actually are. Druid Advantages of the druid over the cleric are: special abilities, animal companion, skill points, spells, and spontaneous summoning. Strangely, none of these look good over a cleric in the mystic theurge. You won't gain wildshape, your animal companion will be stuck at +2hd (i.e. not terribly useful), you need to cross class skill points to meet the theurge requirements, etc. The main advantage of druid spells over cleric are that they have more offensive spells over the cleric. However, this is a lot less important when you are casting many spell levels behind a single class caster. For example, flaming sphere in an EL 7 combat, call lightning in an EL 8 combat, a 7d6 flame strike at EL 10, etc. isn't that impressive. Spontaneous summoning is also not much advantage due to the number of levels behind. A 2nd-level creature at EL 7, a 3rd-level creature at EL 9, etc. just isn't going to cut it. Duration is also another problem. Lasting only rounds at 7th-level is a problem. Many buff spells are not great for aiding parties... but are designed for animal companions or yourself. Neither of which will realistically be entering combat. Cleric Clerics gain turning, domain abilities, domain slots, spells, and spontaneous curing. Skills are made up by the fact that knowledge religion is a class skill and can be gained without cross-classing. Turning does become useless. However, domain abilities and domain slots do continue to be useful. In terms of spells, clerics actually look good in this case. They have a lot of spells which do not depend upon level to be effective. Bless, protection from evil, prayer, etc. don't suffer from being "levels" behind. The extra (domain) spell slots are also allow selecting of domain spells which do not depend on being equal in levels. For example, divinations are equally good at any level. Spontaneous curing my be better than spontaneous summoning -- since curing is always useful, yet summoned creatures would be so many levels below the EL as to not be worthwhile. Either would certainly work, but most of the druids abilities and spells suffer more when so many levels behind. You can't blast or summon nasties to crush enemies when you are doing so with spell slots two or three levels behind a primary caster. Clerical spells are less prone to becoming obsolete with levels. A cure light is more useful than summon nature's ally I. A prayer at high levels is more useful than a call lightning, etc.
#15 high_octane May 16, 2008 1:26:49	Turning does become useless. To be fair its generally useless after level 5 anyway.You have to make ridiculously high turn rolls against anything with more hit die than you, and when it comes to monsters after level 5 you can bet that any creature worth even WORRYING about will have 3 hit die on the cleric. at LEAST. Most of the more powerful ones have a turning resistance anyway.
#16 BW0222 May 16, 2008 2:03:04	High Octane, To be fair its generally useless after level 5 anyway.You have to make ridiculously high turn rolls against anything with more hit die than you, and when it comes to monsters after level 5 you can bet that any creature worth even WORRYING about will have 3 hit die on the cleric. at LEAST. Most of the more powerful ones have a turning resistance anyway. I'm not sure about this. First, you are just as likely to run into multiple lesser undead as a single big one. At 7th-level, four shadows (3hd, +2 turn resistance, and CR 3) is a EL 7 combat. A 7th-level cleric would have no problem turning these. Even without a charisma bonus, he needs a 4+ and turns an average of three of them. Second, even against more powerful undead (say a spectre, 7hd, +2 turn resistance, CR 7) you turn on a 16+ without a charisma bonus. That is still a 25% chance. Given three attempts, you are highly likely to turn him. With any charisma bonuses or buffs, it is certainly far from useless. Certainly, it is useless for the theurge. At 6th+ level, he would be turning as a 3rd-level cleric. He'd need a 16+ to turn two of the shadows, and couldn't turn the spectre. I'd look at feats which require turning attempts or just don't consider it a factor.
#17 antidjinn May 16, 2008 3:03:04	The cleric is definitely more front-loaded. Many of the druid's nifty tricks you will never see because you are not going to take many levels in the class. But the cleric gets two domains, with appropriate special abilities, at first level. For example, Travel domain gives you Freedom of Movement for a limited number of rounds per day as a supernatural ability. You don't need to be able to cast, you just turn it on. Once it is active you can slough off movement-restricting spells to use your wizard spells. The Knowledge domain gives you +1 caster level for all divinations, not just the ones you know as a cleric; there are domains that do the same for other schools of magic. The alignment domains give you +1 level with any spell with the appropriate alignment descriptor. Dream domain makes you immune to fear. Force domain lets you reroll damage from any spell or other attack once per day.