Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 iserith Sep 08, 2008 18:22:14	I've recently had to field some complaints from my group's wizard that it seems wizards in 4e don't seem to be able to keep up attack roll wise with the rest of the classes. Given that most other classes wield weapons that provide a proficiency bonus and wizards have a much harder time taking advantage of a flank, it does seem that he regularly misses while other characters are wailing on bad guys. Is this intentional design? Are we just not doing something right? The party's wizard will be 3rd level at next session if that matters. Forgive me if this was addressed elsewhere. If it was, feel free to link.
#2 kalanth Sep 08, 2008 19:06:06	Well, for one the wizard gets bonuses from their Int and their implement. That particular wizard is going to want to drop some coin on a +1 implement at some point to boost his spells. That, and the wizard is meant to control the battle, not dominate it. The wizard kind of plays clean up on the minions while the party does the beating on the enemy.
#3 salla Sep 08, 2008 19:09:11	The wizard also has more attacks that target the 'secondary defenses' of Fort, Ref, and Will, which are almost universally lower than AC by 2 or 3 points; not coincidentally, that's the same as the proficiency bonus that weapons provide.
#4 iserith Sep 08, 2008 19:53:48	Well, for one the wizard gets bonuses from their Int and their implement. That particular wizard is going to want to drop some coin on a +1 implement at some point to boost his spells. That, and the wizard is meant to control the battle, not dominate it. The wizard kind of plays clean up on the minions while the party does the beating on the enemy. I've already seeded an adventure with a +1 orb that he uses. And the player is no dummy even though we're new to 4e... it just seems the math is not working out or he's not rolling well (lately) or both. We definitely see his role as a "minion-slayer" but it seems anything beyond that he is far less useful than other PCs. The wizard also has more attacks that target the 'secondary defenses' of Fort, Ref, and Will, which are almost universally lower than AC by 2 or 3 points; not coincidentally, that's the same as the proficiency bonus that weapons provide. We puzzled that tidbit out during our post-game discussion on Saturday. It might be that I've been using monsters that have relatively higher defenses than "normal." I'm going to check my notes and make a comparison if only to figure out if it has been a fluke or what. I'm just curious if any of you guys have run into similar problems and if they are intermittent, level-based, a flaw in the class, or just something into which we're reading too much.
#5 kalanth Sep 08, 2008 20:29:25	Well, so far at level 3 the party wizard in my game has had some real struggles with landing her spells. At one point this led to an epic battle between the wizard, a Zombie, and a Decrepit Skeleton. Yep, it took 6 rounds to kill the Zombie and 8 to kill the Minion Skeleton! There are times in the early going that she definetly struggles. However, I don't see it being so much a luck of the dice or numbers but more the choice of the powers. She will use Fortitude spells against monsters with strong Fortitudes and reflex spells against the nimble monsters. Bad decision making, on her part, is what is making it hard for my parties wizard to hit.
#6 drmorganes Sep 09, 2008 7:04:49	It's a good idea for casters - and wizards specifically - to have powers which target all three defenses. It's really hard to land a spell targeting Reflex Defense on a Kobold, for example, but easier with spells targeting Will and Fortitude Defenses (generally speaking). You realize that even a single point of damage destroys ANY minion, right? If it took 8 rounds for the entire party to land a singe hit, either your dice rolls were junk or this encounter was quite a bit above your level. A few examples: I have a Level 1 elven rogue. Her AC and Reflex Defense are both a fairly impressive 16, but her Will Defense drops to 13, and her Fortitude Defense is only 12. Let's assume an encounter with an arcane type and a melee type. Both have a +4 ability modifier for their relevant attack attribute, and the melee type uses a weapon with a +2 proficiency bonus. The melee type will hit her AC half the time. The arcane caster has a 40% chance to hit her Reflex Defense 40%, a 55% chance to land an attack targeting her Will Defense, and a 60% chance to land a spell targeting her Fortitude Defense. The numbers are similar when facing other characters. Defenders typically have a high AC, high Fortitude or Will (depending on their attacking attribute), middling Reflex (heavy armor generally means poor Dex, but boosted slightly by a shield), and poor Fortitude or Will (depending on whether Str or Cha is their primary attack attribute). This is one reason why human wizards rock: that additional at-will power selection means they can select an at-will that targets each Defense. If you have a hard time hitting vs Reflex, switch to a power targeting Will or Fortitude.
#7 kalanth Sep 09, 2008 11:41:32	You realize that even a single point of damage destroys ANY minion, right? If it took 8 rounds for the entire party to land a singe hit, either your dice rolls were junk or this encounter was quite a bit above your level. Yes, of course I know that, I was the DM. The battle was over a decent sized area and the Rogue and Paladin were on the far side dealing with an Ochre Jelly and some Zombies while the Warlord and Wizard got seperated unwillingly and were trying to fight there way to each other. It was comical to watch from the DM perspective as the Wizard would easily hit the Zombie with her Scorching Burst but constantly roll under a ten when it came to hitting the Minion Skeleton. Encounter level was three for a level 2 party, btw. However, DrMorganes reinforces my point in that your wizard should be making an effort to use the spells against the defenses they know are lower. Has the wizard in your party invested in Knowledge Skills? This will help them know how to attack the monster with a quick roll and there by increase the odds to hit because they will gun for the weaknesses the monsters have. The chart for determining what to tell them is in the PHB.
#8 kouk Sep 09, 2008 21:14:58	Wizards are not just minion killers, controlling extends to all monsters if you choose spells which do more than damage. The Wizard in my playgroup continually uses the Icy Terrain power, and almost always knocks at least one or two bad guys down, which messes up their options and makes them grant Combat Advantage. He also has field days with Thunderwave. Color Spray is also really effective in a similar way, it cuts enemy actions and such. The damage is just icing really.
#9 skalgrimm Sep 09, 2008 21:41:30	As others have noted, most wizard attack spells target the lower defenses. This should help them. In addition, you might even give descriptions that help players figure out what defenses are lower (like "the zombies are slow and staggering", which might tell the wizard to use a spell vs. reflex). Also, many wizard spells are burst or blast spells. Even if the wizard has a lower chance of hitting with an attack, you roll vs. each enemy in the area of effect, so that your chances of hitting some of the enemy are increased. Finally, the wizard may want to use their wand, or train with a second implement, to get the wand accuracy benefit. On this same train of thought, putting a magic implement in the game, or letting the player buy or enchant such an implement, may also help them. Really, the only "to hit" benefit the wizard loses is proficiency. They should (with points buy) have the same access to good stat bonuses, the same level bonuses, and the same access to magic items which boost "to hit" rolls, as everyone else.
#10 daidojitaidoru Sep 09, 2008 21:59:38	It should be noted you can build a wizard that can deal fairly impressive damage without ever hitting the target. Wizards get a lot of auto damage hits. If you can't figure out which defense to target just pick up the autodamage spells and let DoT do your work.
#11 confirm_trash Sep 10, 2008 4:52:40	I've recently had to field some complaints from my group's wizard that it seems wizards in 4e don't seem to be able to keep up attack roll wise with the rest of the classes. Given that most other classes wield weapons that provide a proficiency bonus and wizards have a much harder time taking advantage of a flank, it does seem that he regularly misses while other characters are wailing on bad guys. Is this intentional design? Are we just not doing something right? The party's wizard will be 3rd level at next session if that matters. Forgive me if this was addressed elsewhere. If it was, feel free to link. Bad luck, plain and simple, there isn't anything that can really screw with hit chance being anything but +-2 around that level (especially for wizards who get to ignore armor). If its a low level with Kobolds and goblins as your main opponents you can get a disproportionally large amount of high reflex DC's, which could also attribute to it, from later posts it sounds like bad luck though (and terrible group tactics in the particular instance, they all got broken apart doing there own thing!?!). Thinking about it, going from that one description it sounds like your party -may- be breaking up and not grouping up in battles, which would hurt the wizard, who really needs to have a solid group of allies and enemies to really shine with his AOE powers - without them, he's stuck throwing magic missiles, which will be consistently lower than the single target damage output of a striker.
#12 iserith Sep 10, 2008 11:31:16	Also, many wizard spells are burst or blast spells. Even if the wizard has a lower chance of hitting with an attack, you roll vs. each enemy in the area of effect, so that your chances of hitting some of the enemy are increased. Good point. Finally, the wizard may want to use their wand, or train with a second implement, to get the wand accuracy benefit. On this same train of thought, putting a magic implement in the game, or letting the player buy or enchant such an implement, may also help them. Really, the only "to hit" benefit the wizard loses is proficiency. They should (with points buy) have the same access to good stat bonuses, the same level bonuses, and the same access to magic items which boost "to hit" rolls, as everyone else. How do you train in another implement? I assume it's a feat, but I don't see it in the book. Thinking about it, going from that one description it sounds like your party -may- be breaking up and not grouping up in battles, which would hurt the wizard, who really needs to have a solid group of allies and enemies to really shine with his AOE powers - without them, he's stuck throwing magic missiles, which will be consistently lower than the single target damage output of a striker. You'd be correct on that point. The wizard is usually somewhere well behind the ranks once the battle gets going. Rarely is he up in the mix, probably trying to avoid the wrath of my NPCs, when really he's so easy to get to when he's out and about, focusing thunderwave on the one guy that is coming up to him. I'll bring it up to my players. Thanks!
#13 kalanth Sep 10, 2008 17:37:28	You'd be correct on that point. The wizard is usually somewhere well behind the ranks once the battle gets going. Rarely is he up in the mix, probably trying to avoid the wrath of my NPCs, when really he's so easy to get to when he's out and about, focusing thunderwave on the one guy that is coming up to him. I'll bring it up to my players. Thanks! Done right the wizard can get into moments of combat advantage too. If the environment presents itself (higher terrain, tables, things like that) the player should take advantage of those to add that +2 to their attacks. As observed by one of my players, in 4E a +1 seems to make a much bigger difference than in previous editions.
#14 Snooze Sep 12, 2008 11:03:25	Thinking about it, going from that one description it sounds like your party -may- be breaking up and not grouping up in battles, which would hurt the wizard, who really needs to have a solid group of allies and enemies to really shine with his AOE powers - without them, he's stuck throwing magic missiles, which will be consistently lower than the single target damage output of a striker. This is correct, and in fact doubly so. Not only will it benefit the Wizard if all the bad guys are grouped up, it is in fact the Wizard's job to make sure they are grouped up. This is what battlefield control is about. Use your Thunderwave to push guys around. Use your clouds/walls/Flaming Sphere to cut off certain areas of the battlefield, to create a choke point for your Defender(s). Use status effects (Slow, Immobilize, Prone, Daze) to limit the mobility of bad guys, so they can't peel off and attack other people. This is why the Wizard is called a Controller.
#15 lostdwarf Sep 13, 2008 22:43:12	Weapons do get the extra bonus, but they also target AC, which is almost always the highest defence, so it even Out. The wizard my have a +5 and the fighter a +8, but the fighter doesn't get to target ref and fort with his attacks. Dont focus on the number, focus on how often they actually hit. Also, as others have said, dont expect your wizard to be a striker. Wizards have lots of aoe damage options, and lots of "control", but their single target damage isn't that impressive. Dont expect them to keep up with the warlock or the archer ranger. On the other hand, they are minion killing machines, and if you look at the total damage they inflict it is actually quite impressive, it is just that this damage is often spread over multiple targets. (example, if you catch three badguys in your scorching burst, and you have an 18 int, you actually just did 3d6+12 with a first level spell. Pretty damn good, just just spread over the three targets.)
#16 hyzhenhok Sep 13, 2008 23:30:55	In my group, the wizard constantly outshines the strikers. This is, of course, partly because my strikers are idiots. but let's look at the wizard side of things: there are a few specific things your wizard can do to increase his effectiveness: - 20 Intelligence. Wizards really do not need secondary stats very much. - Have him pick the Staff of Defense as his implement, and leather armor as his level 1 feat. Assuming he has 20 intelligence, this will give him 18 AC, which will only be surpassed in the party by a shield defender. A wizard who is not constantly fearful of being monster food is much more effective on the field. - Use the Class Acts: Wizard supplement from Dragon magazine. The powers in there are simply nasty; they target will (which is the average weakest defense of monsters), and they give debuffs and effects that don't require secondary stats or rely on the enemy missing his saving throws. Illusory Ambush, the at-will power that targets will, is the most notable power from that supplement; with it, a human wizard can target fortitude, reflex or will at-will. No other class can do this. Finally, I think it's safe to mention that your wizard has been unlucky so far. I agree that the typical +4 or +5 to hit that casters have seems completely unfair compared to +7 or +8 that some martial classes can get at first level, but in the long run this balances out. This is not only because you're targetting non-AC defenses, but most wizard attacks are AoE. Optimally, a wizard should be making more than one attack roll per round. This balances him out with the warlock, who on average does more damage on a hit, but simply hits less often.
#17 sixis Sep 14, 2008 9:42:25	Here is a run-down of balancing factors: Wizards have one main stat that is most important to them: Intelligence. Intelligence adds to their damage, adds to their hit, adds to their AC, and adds to their Reflex safe. Wizards get more options for daily and utility spells at higher levels with the spellbook. Sure deciding which spells to prep annoys some players, but that's the price you pay for more options. Wizards have a lot more attacks that target more than two opponents. Wizard attacks almost always target defenses that are lower than AC, which balances out when compared to other classes use of proficiency bonuses. Wizards tend to be good at ranged attacks, but have plenty of standard attacks (like thunderwave) that don't provoke AoOs. When you look at all these things, I'd say they balance out pretty well.
#18 Kurama_Youko Sep 15, 2008 8:44:14	Also if you as the DM are modifying monsters with templates (class or other wise) you may have made a mistake or two in calculating defenses or adding things that shouldn't have been added to them. Also check the updates for them DMG and MM some of the rules for modifying monsters were definitely changed... and those things might be effecting what you've done in your game.
#19 Thomson Sep 15, 2008 13:21:43	Well there are some things that help: Wand of Accuracy. Action surge Int 20 Anybody else giving you a bonus to hit (e.g. Laser Cleric) Anybody else inflicting a condition on the target which grants you combat advantage Choosing powers which attack different defenses and having basic knowledge about what is the weakest defense of which monster type (ok, that's metagaming, but for some monsters it isn't that difficult to guess. Agile monsters have good Ref but low Fort, Brute monsters have good Fort but bad Will)