Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 manion Feb 01, 2009 14:00:43	Here's a rundown of the last two sessions with my gaming group. Last week: We're returning from a dungeon crawl session the week previous. It's night, so everything's closed and we're left no choice but to go to the inn. Arriving at the inn, we find a Paladin who's waiting for us. He complains that he's oh so important and has much better things to do than wait around for us to arrive. The group's fighter decides to try to intimidate the Paladin, where, before the player even gets to roll the Paladin knocks him back and prone without even having to roll for it or seeing the intimidate roll. Next day (in-game, but same session), we go to a dock for something or another. I try to do intimidate to get some information out of the dockmaster. Before I even roll the intimidate check, 8 guys pop up out of nowhere, the gate we came through shuts and locks, and we all roll initiative. As we are about to win that encounter, 4 more guys even stronger than those guys we just defeated show up and order us to surrender. Okay, fine, we do. Eventually we are saved by a level 8 NPC merchant (we're level 2 ourselves). Then we are promptly yelled at by the Paladin and the town's lord for slaughtering the entire docks. Yesterday: We follow up some information we got from the dockmaster's desk that leads to a pub. There, the fighter decides to grab the guy who runs the pub and roll an intimidate. Both of my characters (I am running two) want nothing to do with this and I declare they both leave. Immediately upon the fighter's grabbing before he can intimidate (because that's totally going to be a seperate action from the grab, right?), 6 guys pop out of side doors and we roll initiative. My two characters who want nothing to do with this are attacked first. After that battle is over, the pub is blown up (we didn't do it) and it's declared guards are approaching. My Warlord wants to stay behind and explain what happened to the guards. Repeatedly the DM says "it'd be a good idea to run." I give in, I decide that she runs. "Okay, now roll stealth to avoid the guards, athletics to climb the wall, avoid falling in the river, bluff the guards on the bridge...." We make it without getting caught, but if my character who wanted to turn herself in did end up getting caught, I was prepared to walk out of the game entirely. Oh, and we get *****ed at by the Paladin again. Who once again declares he has better things to be doing. So, we've been invited to a party by a noble. We go there, chat it up. As we mention the dock misunderstanding, DM asks for a perception check and someone sees the host's eyebrow furrow as he leaves. My Warlock, trained in insight and not perception, tries to make an insight roll. "You already rolled perception." Everyone at the party has vanished except us apparently. I convince the group to try to leave. The doors are solid steel and the DM pretty much tells us that we have no chance of opening them unless we crit. Yeah, we're rolling initiative and a bunch of guys pop out and attack us. Apparently everyone else at the party. Oh, and the "host" manages to flee 13 squares after taking his standard action all in a single round when we almost beat him. Since the front door is indestructible and almost impossible to pick, we follow. Where we find him surrounded by fire. The group attacks him, "you attack, it hits the fire, don't even bother rolling for damage." Great, we can do nothing. Suddenly, the Paladin appears (#@!%@#%@#^@#^@#%) and with his lightning sword of awesome swings a stroke that resonates with the sound of the heavens and destroys the fire barrier! And saves our asses. My Warlock realizes that with this oh so awesome NPC helping, he can just leave. Oh, except the door to the basement we came in a minute ago is now locked. And there's a wall of fire surrounding it. And this NPC is level 6. We're still level 2. Oh, and critical failures. Where the game becomes temporarily an episode of The Three Stooges.
#2 irenicus_jon Feb 01, 2009 14:13:37	Your DM doesn't like intimidation of NPCs, alternate approaches to the challanges presented, or trying to accomplish stuff without the help (or supervision) of NPCs. So you either sit down and watch the DM's show, or do something about it.
#3 calronmoonflower Feb 01, 2009 14:23:42	It sounds like you need to talk with the DM what what you expect from the game and what he expects from it. Currently it seems every time you do something he doesn't like he punishes you ingame.
#4 aran_kell Feb 01, 2009 14:27:34	DM's have to be rules arbiters. there are certain situations where intimidate is an automatic failure. the paladin might be a good example of this, but the barkeep and the docks are not. fiat is never a good thing. especially when you are over-ruling character actions. it's possible that the DM had a script for the way those encounters were supposed to go down, and was trying to stick to his script. speaking as a DM myself, you should cede the script if the situation no longer works for it. to answer your question, yes. I'd be annoyed, and be plotting to kill the paladin and frame the lord for his death.
#5 baneofelves Feb 01, 2009 14:31:03	It's annoying when you try intimidate and bad guys just suddenly pop up. Try talking to your DM about it. You shouldn't be punished for trying a different method than the DM planned for. Yes, I'd be annoyed.
#6 ddogwood Feb 01, 2009 14:33:12	The most mature and constructive thing you can do is shout "Choo choo!" every time your DM says you can't do something, and sing "Mary Sue!" every time the Paladin shows up. Try it, you'll like it.
#7 manion Feb 01, 2009 14:35:24	Seems more to me that he's just using intimidate as an excuse to introduce combat, ignoring any attempt at non-combat resolution. Not that he's penalizing us for intimidate.
#8 baneofelves Feb 01, 2009 14:36:40	The most mature and constructive thing you can do is shout "Choo choo!" every time your DM says you can't do something, and sing "Mary Sue!" every time the Paladin shows up. Try it, you'll like it. QFT.
#9 synius Feb 01, 2009 15:59:10	This seems to be the type of DM that has a story already mapped out, all the way to the finale, and needs an audience to hear it and maybe help with the odder bits, like combat. DDogwood had it right. If it continues too long, derail it as hard as you can. And, unless I miss my guess, trying to kill the pally will likely result in him jumping 10 levels just before you strike. Were it me, i'd have my character do nothing, and urge the others to do the same. Get attacked, defend as much as possible, and attack only when it would kill the characters not to. Don't go to fancy parties, don't explore dungeons. If asked by the DM why, tell him you figured that the Pally would have it covered, and your team was no longer needed. Or you could sit down with the group, if they have similar feelings, and talk it over with 5the dm, and try to improve the game for all involved.
#10 manion Feb 01, 2009 16:01:50	I'm basically the odd man out in this. One of the other players doesn't care about anything except getting the XP and loot. Another player just enjoys playing his character as a dumbass who will gladly run around in his underwear in circles while yelling "whooo" and absolutely loves DMNPCs. At this point it feels like I can: 1) Be immature and sabotage the games. 2) Stop going, at which point there won't be any players to continue the game. 3) Use a realization of number 2 to make demands about changing the game. None of the options seem overly mature. Except 2, then nobody has fun.
#11 warlawk Feb 01, 2009 16:13:25	I would be annoyed. I hate looking for a new group or convincing someone else to DM.
#12 tusz Feb 01, 2009 16:14:38	There's a fourth option: Talk to the DM about it. Calmly, rationally explain that you feel restricted by the way he's running the story. See if you can come to a diplomatic solution, basically. There's no need for hurt feelings if they can be avoided.
#13 mycroftb Feb 02, 2009 14:43:09	If you leave, there won't be enough players to continue the game? It sounds like the pally DMPC has it covered, and the DM doesn't need players, only an audience. I agree with talking to your DM about it. Don't come off as angry or anything, just let him know that you're not having fun with the way the game is going so far, and ask if you can work together on tweaking it in a way that'd still let him tell his stories while simultaneously letting you feel like your character's actions matter.
#14 voska66 Feb 02, 2009 15:15:32	Has anyone in the group abused the intimidate skill. Like intimidating everything? I've seen that and I've seen DMs punish that behavior like this as they get sick of intimidate rolls being the first thing players do. What happens when you don't intimidate?
#15 nowiwantmydmg Feb 02, 2009 15:41:03	Lousy DM. Be the big man and let him know what he can do to improve or offer advice. If he doesn't want it (even if you are really nice about it) you are probably SOL. Seems like a good example to teach new DMs with though.
#16 crazysamaritan Feb 02, 2009 15:51:20	The group attacks him, "you attack, it hits the fire, don't even bother rolling for damage." Great, we can do nothing. Suddenly, the Paladin appears (#@!%@#%@#^@#^@#%) and with his lightning sword of awesome swings a stroke that resonates with the sound of the heavens and destroys the fire barrier! You do X, nothing happens. NPC does X, something happens. This is not your game.
#17 tedkordlives Feb 02, 2009 16:06:50	As I said in a similar thread, this DM sounds like one of those guys who basically wants to railroad you onto his Grande Storye Expresse, and gods forbid your character NOT do what he planned for. Have you played with this DM before, or is this your first time in the game? Personally, if I weren't enjoying myself, I'd talk to the DM about it or high tail it. It's not worth it to spend hours of your time in an uncomfortable situation, when D&D is a game, not work, and should be fun for all involved. If the others don't care how the game goes, maybe speak with your DM privately. If they don't care, they probably won't even notice, and maybe they'd have more fun.
#18 celloshane Feb 02, 2009 16:41:20	The main question here Manion is are you annoyed enough to go find a different group. Because the way things sound, your current group is not going to get any better. You could try talking with the DM. I wouldn't get overly optimistic about that choice, but I have seen it help in the past. There is a chance that the DM knows what he's doing and has an intricate plot where he eventually kills all the local heros and sets you up to be the only remaining heros to deal with the big, bad evil. I've seen that happen exactly once. It's also possible that the DM might listen to your criticism agree with what you're saying and completely change his style to something more suitable. I have yet to see that happen successfully though, at least on the first try. If talking to the DM doesn't go well, I would say your two best options would be to find a new group or offer to DM the next campaign.
#19 jimthegray Feb 02, 2009 17:00:34	Here's a rundown of the last two sessions with my gaming group. Last week: We're returning from a dungeon crawl session the week previous. It's night, so everything's closed and we're left no choice but to go to the inn. Arriving at the inn, we find a Paladin who's waiting for us. He complains that he's oh so important and has much better things to do than wait around for us to arrive. The group's fighter decides to try to intimidate the Paladin, where, before the player even gets to roll the Paladin knocks him back and prone without even having to roll for it or seeing the intimidate roll. Next day (in-game, but same session), we go to a dock for something or another. I try to do intimidate to get some information out of the dockmaster. Before I even roll the intimidate check, 8 guys pop up out of nowhere, the gate we came through shuts and locks, and we all roll initiative. As we are about to win that encounter, 4 more guys even stronger than those guys we just defeated show up and order us to surrender. Okay, fine, we do. Eventually we are saved by a level 8 NPC merchant (we're level 2 ourselves). Then we are promptly yelled at by the Paladin and the town's lord for slaughtering the entire docks. Yesterday: We follow up some information we got from the dockmaster's desk that leads to a pub. There, the fighter decides to grab the guy who runs the pub and roll an intimidate. Both of my characters (I am running two) want nothing to do with this and I declare they both leave. Immediately upon the fighter's grabbing before he can intimidate (because that's totally going to be a seperate action from the grab, right?), 6 guys pop out of side doors and we roll initiative. My two characters who want nothing to do with this are attacked first. After that battle is over, the pub is blown up (we didn't do it) and it's declared guards are approaching. My Warlord wants to stay behind and explain what happened to the guards. Repeatedly the DM says "it'd be a good idea to run." I give in, I decide that she runs. "Okay, now roll stealth to avoid the guards, athletics to climb the wall, avoid falling in the river, bluff the guards on the bridge...." We make it without getting caught, but if my character who wanted to turn herself in did end up getting caught, I was prepared to walk out of the game entirely. Oh, and we get *****ed at by the Paladin again. Who once again declares he has better things to be doing. So, we've been invited to a party by a noble. We go there, chat it up. As we mention the dock misunderstanding, DM asks for a perception check and someone sees the host's eyebrow furrow as he leaves. My Warlock, trained in insight and not perception, tries to make an insight roll. "You already rolled perception." Everyone at the party has vanished except us apparently. I convince the group to try to leave. The doors are solid steel and the DM pretty much tells us that we have no chance of opening them unless we crit. Yeah, we're rolling initiative and a bunch of guys pop out and attack us. Apparently everyone else at the party. Oh, and the "host" manages to flee 13 squares after taking his standard action all in a single round when we almost beat him. Since the front door is indestructible and almost impossible to pick, we follow. Where we find him surrounded by fire. The group attacks him, "you attack, it hits the fire, don't even bother rolling for damage." Great, we can do nothing. Suddenly, the Paladin appears (#@!%@#%@#^@#^@#%) and with his lightning sword of awesome swings a stroke that resonates with the sound of the heavens and destroys the fire barrier! And saves our asses. My Warlock realizes that with this oh so awesome NPC helping, he can just leave. Oh, except the door to the basement we came in a minute ago is now locked. And there's a wall of fire surrounding it. And this NPC is level 6. We're still level 2. Oh, and critical failures. Where the game becomes temporarily an episode of The Three Stooges. it sounds like a good time for a table flip
#20 jimthegray Feb 02, 2009 17:06:56	I'm basically the odd man out in this. One of the other players doesn't care about anything except getting the XP and loot. Another player just enjoys playing his character as a dumbass who will gladly run around in his underwear in circles while yelling "whooo" and absolutely loves DMNPCs. At this point it feels like I can: 1) Be immature and sabotage the games. 2) Stop going, at which point there won't be any players to continue the game. 3) Use a realization of number 2 to make demands about changing the game. None of the options seem overly mature. Except 2, then nobody has fun. Talk to your group, if they agree just leave town
#21 crazysamaritan Feb 02, 2009 17:35:31	Upon considered reflection, here's an alternative that hasn't been suggested yet: Co-DM. You say that the players all enjoy the current game the DM provides. You dislike it because you have no impact on the plot. If the DM allows you to help him, by controlling NPCs, (townsfolk or villains) checking rules, or writing plot/twists, then you'd have more involvement than you currently do.
#22 jaz0n Feb 02, 2009 17:55:00	Upon considered reflection, here's an alternative that hasn't been suggested yet: Co-DM. You say that the players all enjoy the current game the DM provides. You dislike it because you have no impact on the plot. If the DM allows you to help him, by controlling NPCs, (townsfolk or villains) checking rules, or writing plot/twists, then you'd have more involvement than you currently do. I think the likelihood of that happening is slim at best.
#23 Malckuss Feb 02, 2009 18:21:09	I'm wondering why he is doing this. How long has he been a DM? It would be interesting to get his side of the story. My suggestion is to reiterate what has already been advocated here; see how the other players feel about the situation. See what they want to do about it.
#24 manion Feb 02, 2009 19:05:06	He's new. The other players, their reaction was already described. One doesn't care and loves DMNPCs. The other only cares about XP and loot.
#25 PoetheSchizo Feb 03, 2009 13:08:52	It sounds like he is using HIS badA$$ NPC Palladin to be the hero of his story.. when it should be you and your friends' characters. I second a table flip... or just start playing a bad character (i.e. killing random people, stealing, and trying to turn the party against one another)
#26 Guroth_the_Forsaken Feb 03, 2009 13:22:12	Sorry, but that is one craptastic group you're playing with. Go down to your FLGS and find another one you can enjoy playing with.
#27 dcdm Feb 03, 2009 18:30:02	Write a detailed letter of complaint to your DM, deliver it to him, then leave the campaign. Even if you could convince him not to railroad your characters (which is what he is doing right now), you don't want to be the one suffering through the learning process. Find a new group, now. BTW, I had a DM like this. When he was confronted with his railroading tendencies, he threw a tantrum, said "Fine, I get it, you don't like how I DM. Bye." and then left. We all started up a new campaign, and had a lot more fun.
#28 reldric Feb 05, 2009 16:46:32	You know, I had an idea for a campaign kinda like this.... I control a DMPC that the party is stuck with for the first 2 sessions, im 6 levels higher, hog all the glory and then make an a** of myself because im so much better then them. Then at the end of the 2nd session a bbeg dominates/kills and reanmates/something unpleasant to him, and the pcs have to kill him. I think it would give a great outlet for anger, and draw the characters into the story by hating me.... Kill the paladin, you know you want too.
#29 kaius_markades Feb 05, 2009 19:12:39	I'm sure I would have said "Conductor, Conductor! When's the next stop?" by now if I were you. Seriously though? If you can't reason with him, it is better that you have no game than this one. You will continue to not have fun if he will not listen to calm and rational reasoning. If you can't get him to listen to you? My vote is that you stick around, but only until you have found another group in your spare time, then shift out to that one without a word.
#30 salla Feb 05, 2009 19:18:11	This has happened to me before. I admit, my solution is usually a little more passive-aggressive, if I understand that term correctly. I do nothing. When I'm asked 'what do you do?', I say, 'Nothing. (Mary Sue) will take care of it.' After one or two events of this nature, I'll talk to the rest of the party and we'd come to the conclusion that we were 'just holding (Mary Sue) back' and then we leave so we're not 'being such a load'. Of course, it only works if the whole party is in agreement in objecting to the Mary Sue.