Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shzack Jun 09, 2008 15:19:39	Ok...a new and heated debate from my gaming group..some help from the outside gaming world would be great: In the 4th edition phb...on numerous powers...fireball, jaws of the wolf (a ranger power i believe)...the power grants you damage on your target..even if you miss...what if you roll a 1 though? Do these certain bonuses still apply even if you roll the dreaded numero uno?
#2 kouk Jun 09, 2008 17:53:28	You missed, didn't you? That's all a '1' means after all...
#3 shzack Jun 09, 2008 18:07:58	Yes...I agree... But...in 4th edition rules...some powers/attacks assign damage even if you miss.....does the natural 1 cancel out the damage????
#4 snshijuptr Jun 09, 2008 19:22:02	1 means you miss. So yes you would use the "Miss" results on the power. Fumble on a 1 is a house rule example in the DMG p189. They talk about Fireball in particular. Note that this is only an example of how a house rule might work.
#5 Archus_Forix Jun 10, 2008 6:26:37	I don't have 4E PHB, but the phrasing on the natural 1 is vital. Does it say a natural 1 always misses, or fails? If it misses, then yea, you'll have to make that decision on your own as a house rule. If a natural 1 means the roll always fails, then there is no argument, fireball fizzled. Nothing happened.
#6 drmorganes Jun 10, 2008 7:54:20	Many daily powers still do some damage even if you miss. A natural 1 always misses. No reason to over-think things here. A relevant aside here: the main D&D website is currently advertising the D&D podcast. The two most recent episodes are a recording of a pre-release game played by the guys from PVP and Penny Arcade. It's about an hour and a half between the two, and it's well worth a listen. At least one of the guys is a D&D newb, so there's quite a bit of good-natured ribbing to go along with a bunch of friends learning the new rules. I found it very informative!
#7 kouk Jun 10, 2008 8:51:34	Something to note though, it contains spoilers of Keep on the Shadowfell, which is quite a bad idea I feel.
#8 Kainsin Jun 10, 2008 10:37:43	A natural 1 always misses, no extra penalty for failure. In 3rd ed nothing special happened if a creature rolled a natural 20 on their saving throw, even if they took half damage. A natural 20 was just an automatic success. It's the exact same thing but the attack and defense rolls are reversed.
#9 reinos Jun 10, 2008 12:29:17	thought of the day: dont over think things. if you cant see the forest because of the trees, then back up a little and re-evaluate. if the skill says something happens when you miss, it means that it happens when you miss. Remember one simple thing about DnD. Specific beats unspecific. DM has final say, try bribing him or her with pizza.
#10 drmorganes Jun 10, 2008 12:34:28	Something to note though, it contains spoilers of Keep on the Shadowfell, which is quite a bad idea I feel. Is that what they were playing? Yeah... running a private adventure might have been a better option. Still, I don't think they gave away much and the real-life example of 4E play in my opinion outweighs the few plot spoilers.
#11 RunningWilder Jun 10, 2008 20:46:14	A one is still a miss. The only thing that might change that is if the DM decides to introduce a critical fumble rule, but that's optional and overly punishes characters like wizards who have to roll more attacks for their powers.
#12 bodyknock Jun 11, 2008 8:25:39	A useful analogy is that rolling a 1 on a 4th edition fireball attack is equivalent to the 3rd edition situation of a wizard casting a fireball and their opponent rolling a natural 20 on the saving throw. The 3rd edition fireball will still do partial damage on most opponents even if the opponent gets a natural 20 on the save. Likewise the 4th edition fireball will still do partial damage to most opponents even if you roll a natural 1 on the attack roll.