However, there is one thorn that is sticking in my side... he uses one of those wet-erase battlemaps, which is fine, as that is what everyone else is using. The problem is that he is also using markers for the monsters. No tokens, no miniatures... when we enter a room in the dungeon, we aren't confronted with five zombies, two skeletons, and a wraith, we're confronted by five letter 'L's, two 'F's, and a 'B'. The letters usually don't have anything to do with the names of the creatures.
After a few weekends of this immersion-draining technique, I assumed that he just didn't have anything to use other than the markers, so I decided to help him out... I bought the Monster Vault, and before we started our session, I said, "Hey, I went ahead and brought some tokens for you to use." I was pretty stunned when he said he didn't want to use them; he said that without the letters, he couldn't keep track of their hit points. My guess is that he is using some kind of computer software to keep track of hit points, and this is why the monsters' representations have nothing to do with their names; they are just "Monster A", "Monster B", "Monster C", etc.
I'm wondering how to get around this, as it's a bit of a buzzkill to watch all the other groups enjoying visually exciting combat while I'm being attacked by the alphabet. I'm not one of those people who likes group-hopping, so I'd prefer to stay with him, but on the other hand, he seems to be a bit rigid about this.
Any suggestions?
Maybe he will take to it. Maybe not... just an idea.
You're on the right track with your subject line. Build a PC based on a Sesame Street character, and play that origin hard. "Oh wow, I'm being attacked by the letter G. I have (interrupt power), and I'm going to try to hit the letter G with the number 23. Does the letter G have a Will defense higher than 23?"
(Sorry, never watched much Sesame Street - it was too stupid to hold our kids' attention. And I understand it has gotten worse.)
Note: do NOT play this character EVERY session!
That's the one I got. I was obsessed with making tokens for a while. :o)
Talk it up "Man these new tokens looks so cool, and I love WOTC numbered them to make it easier...' etc.
I've played with a DM who used lettered corks from discarded wine bottles, so I know your pain.
Here's my suggestion - get a bunch of cheap D&D minis(commons, at least, are still cheap), a small hobby drill, some paper clips, and a pack of tiny post-it strips. Next, go all A-Team on those minis. Drill a hole in the base, bend one section of the paper clip straight, and glue the paper clip into the base like a standard. When gametime comes around, create labels for the different monsters based on his alphabet system. Put the label in the paper clip, and thrown down those minis. Immersion and utility - Genius!
www.aleatools.com/Conversion-Circles-p/t...
That's the one I got. I was obsessed with making tokens for a while. :o)
What I do is print out tokens (I bought a bunch of the jpeg tokens available on Drive-through RPG, I can't remember the company that makes them). I drag them into powerpoint, put little circles with numbers or letters on them, print them on cardstock, and cut them apart. If I have time, I print them two-sided, with the reverse side having their ID in red to represent bloody.
No offense, really. But it just seems like you have a particular mind set about this. Kinda curious though because you voice your annoyance about the DM using letters to represent the monsters. Yet you went out and bought the Monster Vault and offered simple tokens. Now I'm not familiar enough with the tokens, so maybe the tokens have pictures of the monsters or something on them and that's why you offered them. But to me when I hear tokens I think either round little pieces of colored cardboard, or those clear fake gem things that're used in flower vases all the time. So to me the tokens don't seem any different than what the DM is already using.
The key really seems to be that you find you're unable to immerse yourself in the game if the monsters aren't represented on the mat with matching pieces. And that's fine I guess for you, if that's how you are that's how you are. Our group uses miniatures on the mat, and more often than not we do not use matching pieces. We may be facing a group of zombies and the pieces on the mat are a collection of elves, elementals, monsters, people, etc. It really doesn't matter what pieces we know what the monsters are.
The problem really isn't the DM, but you. You can get past the letters representing monsters. Though "problem" may be the wrong word...issue would probably be better. Because the real issue isn't that the DM likes to use letters to represent monsters, it's that you can't see the monsters. If the DM has four "B's" and two "C's" on the mat and says the "B's" are zombies and the "C's" are skeletons you can't see them, just the letters. Okay, again though how do the tokens you bought make any difference? Like I said unless the tokens have pictures of the monsters, then they're really no different than the letters the DM chooses.
And on the note of tokens, honestly I'm in support of the DM. Not saying that you're intentions may have good natured, but look at it this way. The DM has been doing his game this way for however long. And maybe this isn't his first game, I'm just going to assume he's done a couple games before probably all using the letters to represent monsters. Suddenly right before the game you walk up to him and go to hand him the tokens saying, "Hey, I went ahead and brought some tokens for you to use."
I bet the DM felt insulted which could've caused him to respond the way he did. I mean you just come up to him right before the game, out of the blue and basically told him that you felt his techniques weren't good enough. That you felt he wasn't doing a good enough job and that he should take your handout to do better. Could be wrong, don't know the guy but that's a possibility I see here in your post. Instead of talking to the DM outside of the game, and not just right before, to maybe get an understanding of his point of view you instead go out and buy tokens(still don't get how these are any better), and practically shove them at the DM out of the blue and tell him you bought these for him to use instead.
Blindsided. And on top of that you then post here complaining about the DM just because he uses letters instead of miniatures or your tokens you bought and want to know how to "get around this?" I'm going to be mean here, and say use your bloody imagination. That's what the game is about, using your imagination. If you can imagine a skeleton or whatever monster on the field attacking your character then I have no idea what to tell you. But again I can't get my head around why you feel tokens are better then letters at representing monsters since they're basically the same things. And yeah, the DM probably has an entire system whether a program or not doesn't matter. Not to mention again you blindsided him with the tokens right before the game. Do you really think that he was just going to drop his system at the last minute for your tokens? He probably had at the very least all the battles of that particular game planned out and set up ahead of time and would then have to go back and rework everything which would've taken time that he probably didn't want to spend when it would be at the sacrifice of the game.
Again, the real issue isn't that the DM is using letters to represent skeletons and whatnot, it's that you simply don't like it. You want the board to be set up with the monsters that you're facing against. You don't want to be told that the "B's" are zombies, you want four zombies sitting on the mat. And if that interferes with your "immersion" of the game, then really again you need to go to a different DM that uses such pieces instead of feeling that this DM is somehow a stubborn, stiff neck who's in the wrong. Or like I said, ask to talk to him after a game, where there's plenty of time to talk and just speak with him. Maybe if you didn't try surprising and blindsiding him he may actually be open to using the tokens(for whatever reason). Just talk to him without the constraints of a game starting and you'll probably have a better time of it.
Dranack-
Yeah the OP brought tokens, but like I said from the way he tells the story he blindsided the DM right before the game with them without talking to him or even trying to find out why the DM prefers using letters. They weren't shot down for "ridiculous reasons". The DM had his system and the battles probably already planned out his way and suddenly being handed these tokens and told that these were for him to use would've probably been a pain for him to change things up. And probably could've been construed as insulting to a degree or at least annoying.
- Punch a bunch of little white circles.
- lay one circle on the top of each monster token.
- Laminate the tops of the tokens, with the little white paper circle under the laminate. Cover the whole token.
- Encourage your DM to write the letters that correspond to the monsters in his fight tracking program on the white circles in dry erase pen. You get to see the monster, he gets to see his letter, and when you're done you wipe off the letter.
Honestly OP...not really sure what to tell ya. I mean you don't like what the DM is using so really the best advice would be to leave the game and go to a DM that uses miniatures or whatever floats your boat.
No offense, really. But it just seems like you have a particular mind set about this. Kinda curious though because you voice your annoyance about the DM using letters to represent the monsters. Yet you went out and bought the Monster Vault and offered simple tokens. Now I'm not familiar enough with the tokens, so maybe the tokens have pictures of the monsters or something on them and that's why you offered them. But to me when I hear tokens I think either round little pieces of colored cardboard, or those clear fake gem things that're used in flower vases all the time. So to me the tokens don't seem any different than what the DM is already using.
The key really seems to be that you find you're unable to immerse yourself in the game if the monsters aren't represented on the mat with matching pieces. And that's fine I guess for you, if that's how you are that's how you are. Our group uses miniatures on the mat, and more often than not we do not use matching pieces. We may be facing a group of zombies and the pieces on the mat are a collection of elves, elementals, monsters, people, etc. It really doesn't matter what pieces we know what the monsters are.
The problem really isn't the DM, but you. You can get past the letters representing monsters. Though "problem" may be the wrong word...issue would probably be better. Because the real issue isn't that the DM likes to use letters to represent monsters, it's that you can't see the monsters. If the DM has four "B's" and two "C's" on the mat and says the "B's" are zombies and the "C's" are skeletons you can't see them, just the letters. Okay, again though how do the tokens you bought make any difference? Like I said unless the tokens have pictures of the monsters, then they're really no different than the letters the DM chooses.
And on the note of tokens, honestly I'm in support of the DM. Not saying that you're intentions may have good natured, but look at it this way. The DM has been doing his game this way for however long. And maybe this isn't his first game, I'm just going to assume he's done a couple games before probably all using the letters to represent monsters. Suddenly right before the game you walk up to him and go to hand him the tokens saying, "Hey, I went ahead and brought some tokens for you to use."
I bet the DM felt insulted which could've caused him to respond the way he did. I mean you just come up to him right before the game, out of the blue and basically told him that you felt his techniques weren't good enough. That you felt he wasn't doing a good enough job and that he should take your handout to do better. Could be wrong, don't know the guy but that's a possibility I see here in your post. Instead of talking to the DM outside of the game, and not just right before, to maybe get an understanding of his point of view you instead go out and buy tokens(still don't get how these are any better), and practically shove them at the DM out of the blue and tell him you bought these for him to use instead.
Blindsided. And on top of that you then post here complaining about the DM just because he uses letters instead of miniatures or your tokens you bought and want to know how to "get around this?" I'm going to be mean here, and say use your bloody imagination. That's what the game is about, using your imagination. If you can imagine a skeleton or whatever monster on the field attacking your character then I have no idea what to tell you. But again I can't get my head around why you feel tokens are better then letters at representing monsters since they're basically the same things. And yeah, the DM probably has an entire system whether a program or not doesn't matter. Not to mention again you blindsided him with the tokens right before the game. Do you really think that he was just going to drop his system at the last minute for your tokens? He probably had at the very least all the battles of that particular game planned out and set up ahead of time and would then have to go back and rework everything which would've taken time that he probably didn't want to spend when it would be at the sacrifice of the game.
Again, the real issue isn't that the DM is using letters to represent skeletons and whatnot, it's that you simply don't like it. You want the board to be set up with the monsters that you're facing against. You don't want to be told that the "B's" are zombies, you want four zombies sitting on the mat. And if that interferes with your "immersion" of the game, then really again you need to go to a different DM that uses such pieces instead of feeling that this DM is somehow a stubborn, stiff neck who's in the wrong. Or like I said, ask to talk to him after a game, where there's plenty of time to talk and just speak with him. Maybe if you didn't try surprising and blindsiding him he may actually be open to using the tokens(for whatever reason). Just talk to him without the constraints of a game starting and you'll probably have a better time of it.
Dranack-
Yeah the OP brought tokens, but like I said from the way he tells the story he blindsided the DM right before the game with them without talking to him or even trying to find out why the DM prefers using letters. They weren't shot down for "ridiculous reasons". The DM had his system and the battles probably already planned out his way and suddenly being handed these tokens and told that these were for him to use would've probably been a pain for him to change things up. And probably could've been construed as insulting to a degree or at least annoying.
There are pictures of the monsters on them. They don't have every single monster in existence, but there are hundreds of them, so they can at least be used to represent similar monsters (ghosts for specters, goblins for some other humanoid race, etc.). We use similar tokens for the characters (also complements of me), and it works very well... everyone at the table knows which character is which; if we used initials, I can guarantee that the players would occasionally pause and say, "What's your character's first name? I can't remember which letter you are."
I played years of 1st edition without using miniatures, so the problem is not that I "can't" visualize the monsters, it's that 4th edition rules seem to be written with the assumption that you are using either miniatures or tokens. It's a tactical game, not a roguelike, and it's challenging to think of tactics without bogging the game down when you and all of the other players (it isn't just me) have to keep asking "I want to target the flying creature... which one is the bat? I remember it started over in that corner, so I know it's either 'B', 'G', or 'L'." That happens in almost every battle, and, again, it is not just me who asks that, it is all of the players. The DM's descriptions of the monsters are great, so we know what the monsters look like, we can visualize them, we just keep getting confused because we don't have photographic memories that remind us that the flying monster is the letter 'J'.
I think you're blowing things WAY out of proportion. I'm trying to improve the game for everyone... I have yet to DM 4E, as I only recently started playing it, but I DM'd for years, and I always tried to accomodate players' ideas for improving the game, as happy players make for happier DMs. You make it sound like I hate my DM, which is not the case. I'm just saying that I think it could make an A- game into an A+ game. I would have been perfectly happy if he had said, "Well, the way I'm running things right now, they won't work, but maybe we can throw some ideas at each other and figure out something that works for both of us." I guess I'm just a little peeved that it was shot down unilaterally.
Then you're attacked by "goblin J". And everyone is happy.
There are pictures of the monsters on them. They don't have every single monster in existence, but there are hundreds of them, so they can at least be used to represent similar monsters (ghosts for specters, goblins for some other humanoid race, etc.). We use similar tokens for the characters (also complements of me), and it works very well... everyone at the table knows which character is which; if we used initials, I can guarantee that the players would occasionally pause and say, "What's your character's first name? I can't remember which letter you are."
I played years of 1st edition without using miniatures, so the problem is not that I "can't" visualize the monsters, it's that 4th edition rules seem to be written with the assumption that you are using either miniatures or tokens. It's a tactical game, not a roguelike, and it's challenging to think of tactics without bogging the game down when you and all of the other players (it isn't just me) have to keep asking "I want to target the flying creature... which one is the bat? I remember it started over in that corner, so I know it's either 'B', 'G', or 'L'." That happens in almost every battle, and, again, it is not just me who asks that, it is all of the players. The DM's descriptions of the monsters are great, so we know what the monsters look like, we can visualize them, we just keep getting confused because we don't have photographic memories that remind us that the flying monster is the letter 'J'.
I think you're blowing things WAY out of proportion. I'm trying to improve the game for everyone... I have yet to DM 4E, as I only recently started playing it, but I DM'd for years, and I always tried to accomodate players' ideas for improving the game, as happy players make for happier DMs. You make it sound like I hate my DM, which is not the case. I'm just saying that I think it could make an A- game into an A+ game. I would have been perfectly happy if he had said, "Well, the way I'm running things right now, they won't work, but maybe we can throw some ideas at each other and figure out something that works for both of us." I guess I'm just a little peeved that it was shot down unilaterally.
Alright, so pics on the tokens. Good to know. And I didn't say it sounded like you hated him, just the way you told your story you sounded aggrevated at the DM because he uses letters instead of tokens or miniatures. I can understand though your annoyance at being told no to your idea. Doesn't change the fact that it sounds like you blindsided him before the game which probably was why he didn't sit down and chat with you about it. Or maybe something else was going on that day and he was stressed, who knows.
You didn't mention that it's basically everyone of the group that is getting confused or whatever. In that case, why not sit down or call the group and decide to get there early or something so you can talk to the DM. Ask him to get there early so you can all chat, or maybe meet up outside of where you game if it's at a store or whatever. That way you can all chat together and maybe work out something. To me that's the best option. Or if you don't want to do that move to a different game or just go with it.
In your situation, you want more immersion, and the bland tokens aren't enough for you. mellored has the right of it. maybe use colored sticky notes (just the sticky part cut into small squares) with letters on it so the DM can track which is which, but leave most of the picture still visible.
2. Write a little legend at the corner of the battle map, or on scrap paper, every combat to remind you of which letters are which monsters. J = GOBLIN; Q = ELF; etc.
We have a pretty fancy setup with a projector mounted to the ceiling and the gaming table is painted white. Most of us use a marker and write on the table directly (in our own space) for traking our HPs, HSs, current status effects, etc. The DM uses MapTools for background and main terrain features. We use minis, and just write next to each monster the number/letter so the DM can track it easier. When the monster moves, just erase and re-write the number/letter as needed.
In your situation, you want more immersion, and the bland tokens aren't enough for you. mellored has the right of it. maybe use colored sticky notes (just the sticky part cut into small squares) with letters on it so the DM can track which is which, but leave most of the picture still visible.
Wow. Just wow. Jealous!
We have a pretty fancy setup with a projector mounted to the ceiling and the gaming table is painted white. Most of us use a marker and write on the table directly (in our own space) for traking our HPs, HSs, current status effects, etc. The DM uses MapTools for background and main terrain features. We use minis, and just write next to each monster the number/letter so the DM can track it easier. When the monster moves, just erase and re-write the number/letter as needed.
In your situation, you want more immersion, and the bland tokens aren't enough for you. mellored has the right of it. maybe use colored sticky notes (just the sticky part cut into small squares) with letters on it so the DM can track which is which, but leave most of the picture still visible.
Wow. Just wow. Jealous!
I am one of the DMs that use this set up and it is very cool.
One option that can work is TWO MAPS. He maintains a small one next to him on a (paper sized?) sheet, and you (or another player) do it the way you like it on a big map. This is more total work, but it is actually easier on the DM, and gives players a bit more to do to keep them involved. It works best when the DM and players are ok with a bit of inconsistency ("Oh, you put it there? It should have been one over. [That works.../Can you move it one over?]") It doesn't work if people get very worked up if something gets shifted around a bit (which may cause things like flanking, etc...) to get messed up.
Another option: Go out and find yourself a bunch of different colored 1 inch poker chips/etc... Between different colors, different shapes, etc... you can get a wide number of cominations. The DM may be able to use these beneath tiles to separate monsters for his purposes while you use tokens/figures.
A last option: Flags. There are flags out there to be found that have clear bases. You can put lables with letters on them. Stick the flags on the map and put tokens beneath them.
...I'm wondering how to get around this, as it's a bit of a buzzkill to watch all the other groups enjoying visually exciting combat while I'm being attacked by the alphabet...
I don't have a solution to your problem, but thank you so much for the laugh I got from reading the above sentence.
I played years of 1st edition without using miniatures, so the problem is not that I "can't" visualize the monsters, it's that 4th edition rules seem to be written with the assumption that you are using either miniatures or tokens. It's a tactical game, not a roguelike, and it's challenging to think of tactics without bogging the game down when you and all of the other players (it isn't just me) have to keep asking "I want to target the flying creature... which one is the bat? I remember it started over in that corner, so I know it's either 'B', 'G', or 'L'." That happens in almost every battle, and, again, it is not just me who asks that, it is all of the players. The DM's descriptions of the monsters are great, so we know what the monsters look like, we can visualize them, we just keep getting confused because we don't have photographic memories that remind us that the flying monster is the letter 'J'.
Well then; there's a simple answer to this problem.
I'll give you a hint. It involves YOU, a piece of scratch paper, & a pencil....
We have a pretty fancy setup with a projector mounted to the ceiling and the gaming table is painted white. Most of us use a marker and write on the table directly (in our own space) for traking our HPs, HSs, current status effects, etc. The DM uses MapTools for background and main terrain features. We use minis, and just write next to each monster the number/letter so the DM can track it easier. When the monster moves, just erase and re-write the number/letter as needed.
In your situation, you want more immersion, and the bland tokens aren't enough for you. mellored has the right of it. maybe use colored sticky notes (just the sticky part cut into small squares) with letters on it so the DM can track which is which, but leave most of the picture still visible.
How much did that whole setup set you back?
We have a pretty fancy setup with a projector mounted to the ceiling and the gaming table is painted white. Most of us use a marker and write on the table directly (in our own space) for traking our HPs, HSs, current status effects, etc. The DM uses MapTools for background and main terrain features. We use minis, and just write next to each monster the number/letter so the DM can track it easier. When the monster moves, just erase and re-write the number/letter as needed.
In your situation, you want more immersion, and the bland tokens aren't enough for you. mellored has the right of it. maybe use colored sticky notes (just the sticky part cut into small squares) with letters on it so the DM can track which is which, but leave most of the picture still visible.
How much did that whole setup set you back?
It isn't his setup. Our gracious host is responsible for it. The only real expense is the projector. He did his own mounting and the table is bathroom wall paneling I believe.
...although I personally think you're acting waaay too entitled here. Sorry. Let the DM run his game the way he likes, and when you offer feedback, try to be constructive. That will go a long way to the other person accepting your criticism and acting on it.
...although I personally think you're acting waaay too entitled here. Sorry. Let the DM run his game the way he likes, and when you offer feedback, try to be constructive. That will go a long way to the other person accepting your criticism and acting on it.
Entitlement isn't the issue here. The DMs approach is interfering with the players sense of immersion. At the most basic level, the player could just change DMs to one that matches his playstyle better. He would prefer to compromise with the DM, as that playstyle is affecting the entire group, not just himself. Many of the suggestions so far have been pretty reasonable alternatives to help the DM manage tracking the monsters without resorting to letters that have no associations with the monsters.
...although I personally think you're acting waaay too entitled here. Sorry. Let the DM run his game the way he likes, and when you offer feedback, try to be constructive. That will go a long way to the other person accepting your criticism and acting on it.
Entitlement isn't the issue here. The DMs approach is interfering with the players sense of immersion. At the most basic level, the player could just change DMs to one that matches his playstyle better. He would prefer to compromise with the DM, as that playstyle is affecting the entire group, not just himself. Many of the suggestions so far have been pretty reasonable alternatives to help the DM manage tracking the monsters without resorting to letters that have no associations with the monsters.
And for the record, I'm not asking for anything I wouldn't do myself if the spots were switched... I plan on running a game this summer, and one of the first things I'm going to tell the players is to let me know what changes they would like at any time.
And I do plan on asking my DM to be one of my players... I like the guy, he's fun to game with.
Essentially, the DM creates his own tokens prior to each dungeon. I usually use google images and the monster manuals to find pictures which I shrink to be 1 inch circles. When they are printed I use a 1 inch hole punch to quickly punch them out and then I glue them to a washer (you can buy 1 inch washers for about 12 cents a piece). This gives the tokens some weight and prevents them from being easy knocked (or blown) around.
So how do we tell which monster is which (other than the pictures)? I put a border around each monster. I have about 12 borders to choose from (Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, light blue, black, white, brown, gray, black) so when I create encounters I just make sure I don't have 2 monsters that are the same color border. I can quickly make note of which monster is which based on the color and there is still the picture to give the immersion.
...although I personally think you're acting waaay too entitled here. Sorry. Let the DM run his game the way he likes, and when you offer feedback, try to be constructive. That will go a long way to the other person accepting your criticism and acting on it.
Entitlement isn't the issue here. The DMs approach is interfering with the players sense of immersion. At the most basic level, the player could just change DMs to one that matches his playstyle better. He would prefer to compromise with the DM, as that playstyle is affecting the entire group, not just himself. Many of the suggestions so far have been pretty reasonable alternatives to help the DM manage tracking the monsters without resorting to letters that have no associations with the monsters.
And for the record, I'm not asking for anything I wouldn't do myself if the spots were switched... I plan on running a game this summer, and one of the first things I'm going to tell the players is to let me know what changes they would like at any time.
Entitlement or not, he's allowed to run the game the way he want's.
Tokens where a very nice gesture, but the didn't fix the issue. Mainly, he want's letters to keep track of stuff, and you want pictures for immersion.
No real reason you couldn't have both though... pictures with letters on them is achiveable in a variety of ways.
I use simplistic paper-glued-to-cardboard minis that you can make for free. I use little plastic rings for ongoing damage, and any DM worth his salt should be able to track the hp of at least a dozen monsters without difficulty. I totally do not buy "I need this to be a G so I can track" b.s. Lazy, lazy, lazy.
I'm more on the OP's side than the DM's. Drawing letters on the map is not just immersion killing, it's incredibly lazy. If he can't keep track of which monster is which, he is simply not very skilled in that aspect of DM'ing.
I use simplistic paper-glued-to-cardboard minis that you can make for free. I use little plastic rings for ongoing damage, and any DM worth his salt should be able to track the hp of at least a dozen monsters without difficulty. I totally do not buy "I need this to be a G so I can track" b.s. Lazy, lazy, lazy.
No...
Some people just can't keep track of that many things without help, or have difficulty with numbers. There's no reason he should be kicked out of his DM seat because of it. Especially if he's good at the other aspects of DMing (story telling, voices, ect..).
And IMO (obviously your optinions are different) i'd rather have a faster game with letters then a slower game with pictures. So any tool that speeds up rolling/math/ect... even at the cost of immersion is welcome in my book.
I'm more on the OP's side than the DM's. Drawing letters on the map is not just immersion killing, it's incredibly lazy. If he can't keep track of which monster is which, he is simply not very skilled in that aspect of DM'ing.
I use simplistic paper-glued-to-cardboard minis that you can make for free. I use little plastic rings for ongoing damage, and any DM worth his salt should be able to track the hp of at least a dozen monsters without difficulty. I totally do not buy "I need this to be a G so I can track" b.s. Lazy, lazy, lazy.
No...
Some people just can't keep track of that many things without help, or have difficulty with numbers. There's no reason he should be kicked out of his DM seat because of it. Especially if he's good at the other aspects of DMing (story telling, voices, ect..).
And IMO (obviously your optinions are different) i'd rather have a faster game with letters then a slower game with pictures. So any tool that speeds up rolling/math/ect... even at the cost of immersion is welcome in my book.
To each his own. I never suggested he should be booted from the DM's seat, but he should be strongly encouraged to practice tracking and not lessen his player's experience because of his own limitations. Using 3d minis does not slow my game down any more than his method would.
Consider, if one of his "G"s gets pushed, he now has to erase and redraw that G, instead of simply sliding the mini an inch.
Consider, if one of his "G"s gets pushed, he now has to erase and redraw that G, instead of simply sliding the mini an inch.
That i agree with. Tokens/mini's are faster then redrawing letters.
Which is really why i really think the solution is tokens with letters and pictures (or mini's with letter's, or any other combination).
I think the OP's complaint isn't remotely worth consideration. If he doesn't like the DM's presentation, he should just not play at that table, or better yet, go to the organizer and volunteer to do some DMing himself.
OR try and come up with a solution that suits everyone.
Which is what he did do. And should be applauded
for the thought and effort, even if it didn't work.I think the OP's complaint isn't remotely worth consideration. If he doesn't like the DM's presentation, he should just not play at that table, or better yet, go to the organizer and volunteer to do some DMing himself.
OR try and come up with a solution that suits everyone.
Which is what he did do. And should be applauded
No. He should absolutely not be applauded for complaining about a volunteer who is putting forth his time and effort because his precious immersion is broken. He should be berated and ridiculed for making this complaint in the first place.
I think the OP's complaint isn't remotely worth consideration. If he doesn't like the DM's presentation, he should just not play at that table, or better yet, go to the organizer and volunteer to do some DMing himself.
OR try and come up with a solution that suits everyone.
Which is what he did do. And should be applauded
No. He should absolutely not be applauded for complaining about a volunteer who is putting forth his time and effort because his precious immersion is broken. He should be berated and ridiculed for making this complaint in the first place.
I think you missed this part...
I bought the Monster Vault, and before we started our session, I said, "Hey, I went ahead and brought some tokens for you to use."
So yea, he went out and did something.
Didn't solve the problem, but he didn't just "complain".
I think the OP's complaint isn't remotely worth consideration. If he doesn't like the DM's presentation, he should just not play at that table, or better yet, go to the organizer and volunteer to do some DMing himself.
OR try and come up with a solution that suits everyone.
Which is what he did do. And should be applauded
No. He should absolutely not be applauded for complaining about a volunteer who is putting forth his time and effort because his precious immersion is broken. He should be berated and ridiculed for making this complaint in the first place.
I think you missed this part...I bought the Monster Vault, and before we started our session, I said, "Hey, I went ahead and brought some tokens for you to use."
So yea, he went out and did something.
Didn't solve the problem, but he didn't just "complain".
The fact that he bought the Monster Vault and offered it to the DM doesn't make complaining about the DM's style not reprehensible.
I was hoping we'd abandon the whole "I'm doing you a favor by being your dungeon master" routine with this edition. Alas.
Anyone old enough to have played 3.5 in a public store should also be mature enough to recognize that volunteering for your entertainment is doing you a favor, and you should be thanking him for doing it.
I would recommend a compromise with the DM. Ask him to atleast use a lettering scheme to make the monsters identifiable. For example, use G1, G2, and G3 for 3 goblins.
That's a good compromise. It's also exactly the notation I use on the dry erase board where I track monster HP.
Honestly OP...not really sure what to tell ya. I mean you don't like what the DM is using so really the best advice would be to leave the game and go to a DM that uses miniatures or whatever floats your boat.
No offense, really. But it just seems like you have a particular mind set about this. Kinda curious though because you voice your annoyance about the DM using letters to represent the monsters. Yet you went out and bought the Monster Vault and offered simple tokens. Now I'm not familiar enough with the tokens, so maybe the tokens have pictures of the monsters or something on them and that's why you offered them. But to me when I hear tokens I think either round little pieces of colored cardboard, or those clear fake gem things that're used in flower vases all the time. So to me the tokens don't seem any different than what the DM is already using.
The key really seems to be that you find you're unable to immerse yourself in the game if the monsters aren't represented on the mat with matching pieces. And that's fine I guess for you, if that's how you are that's how you are. Our group uses miniatures on the mat, and more often than not we do not use matching pieces. We may be facing a group of zombies and the pieces on the mat are a collection of elves, elementals, monsters, people, etc. It really doesn't matter what pieces we know what the monsters are.
The problem really isn't the DM, but you. You can get past the letters representing monsters. Though "problem" may be the wrong word...issue would probably be better. Because the real issue isn't that the DM likes to use letters to represent monsters, it's that you can't see the monsters. If the DM has four "B's" and two "C's" on the mat and says the "B's" are zombies and the "C's" are skeletons you can't see them, just the letters. Okay, again though how do the tokens you bought make any difference? Like I said unless the tokens have pictures of the monsters, then they're really no different than the letters the DM chooses.
And on the note of tokens, honestly I'm in support of the DM. Not saying that you're intentions may have good natured, but look at it this way. The DM has been doing his game this way for however long. And maybe this isn't his first game, I'm just going to assume he's done a couple games before probably all using the letters to represent monsters. Suddenly right before the game you walk up to him and go to hand him the tokens saying, "Hey, I went ahead and brought some tokens for you to use."
I bet the DM felt insulted which could've caused him to respond the way he did. I mean you just come up to him right before the game, out of the blue and basically told him that you felt his techniques weren't good enough. That you felt he wasn't doing a good enough job and that he should take your handout to do better. Could be wrong, don't know the guy but that's a possibility I see here in your post. Instead of talking to the DM outside of the game, and not just right before, to maybe get an understanding of his point of view you instead go out and buy tokens(still don't get how these are any better), and practically shove them at the DM out of the blue and tell him you bought these for him to use instead.
Blindsided. And on top of that you then post here complaining about the DM just because he uses letters instead of miniatures or your tokens you bought and want to know how to "get around this?" I'm going to be mean here, and say use your bloody imagination. That's what the game is about, using your imagination. If you can imagine a skeleton or whatever monster on the field attacking your character then I have no idea what to tell you. But again I can't get my head around why you feel tokens are better then letters at representing monsters since they're basically the same things. And yeah, the DM probably has an entire system whether a program or not doesn't matter. Not to mention again you blindsided him with the tokens right before the game. Do you really think that he was just going to drop his system at the last minute for your tokens? He probably had at the very least all the battles of that particular game planned out and set up ahead of time and would then have to go back and rework everything which would've taken time that he probably didn't want to spend when it would be at the sacrifice of the game.
Again, the real issue isn't that the DM is using letters to represent skeletons and whatnot, it's that you simply don't like it. You want the board to be set up with the monsters that you're facing against. You don't want to be told that the "B's" are zombies, you want four zombies sitting on the mat. And if that interferes with your "immersion" of the game, then really again you need to go to a different DM that uses such pieces instead of feeling that this DM is somehow a stubborn, stiff neck who's in the wrong. Or like I said, ask to talk to him after a game, where there's plenty of time to talk and just speak with him. Maybe if you didn't try surprising and blindsiding him he may actually be open to using the tokens(for whatever reason). Just talk to him without the constraints of a game starting and you'll probably have a better time of it.
Dranack-
Yeah the OP brought tokens, but like I said from the way he tells the story he blindsided the DM right before the game with them without talking to him or even trying to find out why the DM prefers using letters. They weren't shot down for "ridiculous reasons". The DM had his system and the battles probably already planned out his way and suddenly being handed these tokens and told that these were for him to use would've probably been a pain for him to change things up. And probably could've been construed as insulting to a degree or at least annoying.
That's basically what I was thinking too.
This is my third season running D&D Encounters and my wife has run several Game Days so we have amassed more D&D monster tokens than we could ever use (we've given most of them away). Some of them have monster pictures on them but most are simply color-coded. Best I recall (it's raining so I'm not going to get them out of the van just to check), my main set is 8 greens, 2 reds, 4 blues, and 4 greenish-yellows. Each set is numbered from 1 to however many there are of that color. I use them for Encounters and all of my home campaigns (GURPS 4e and HackMaster 5e) and no one has ever complained about them adversely affecting immersion.
My first long-term D&D character is an airsoul genasi swordmage. Since WotC refused to give us any genasi minis, I cut a Killer Frost Heroclix off her base and used it instead. Since then I have used her for all of my characters – even the human knight I played for two seasons of Encounters and my crotchety old former squad leader in a Traveller game. No one has ever had trouble remembering which character I was playing.
My wife's second-oldest D&D character is a drow beastmaster ranger who fights using a huge two-handed sword. The GM of our first campaign was a prolific buyer of D&D minis so he gave her a mini of a drow with a two-handed sword. She now uses it for all of her characters – including this season's pixie berserker. Once again, no one has any trouble keeping track of which character she's playing that week.
So I just don't get how inappropriate miniatures can prevent immersion. On the other extreme, I remember seeing a thread a few months ago (I think it was on here but it might have been on RPGnet) where a player had trouble with a GM who wouldn't allow anyone to play a character unless HE had an appropriate mini. His player was rightfully incensed since the GM okayed his character until about five minutes before the game was going to start and then suddenly decided he couldn't play it since he didn't have a matching mini even though the player did.
I was hoping we'd abandon the whole "I'm doing you a favor by being your dungeon master" routine with this edition. Alas.
Anyone old enough to have played 3.5 in a public store should also be mature enough to recognize that volunteering for your entertainment is doing you a favor, and you should be thanking him for doing it.
By say... buying something to help the game?
Anyways, like I said, it's fine to go to the DM and offer to let him use the Monster Vault. It's even fine to come to a public forum and say "I'm having this problem with what the DM is doing, what are some things I can do?" But the player has to understand that this is his problem, not the DM's, and that the DM is absolutely right in showing where the monsters are however he wants.
First off, and I know it's not your fault Mellored, but it's hard to read your posts when everything you say is followed by the giant list of builds. Any chance you might change your sig until sblocks are fixed?
Anyways, like I said, it's fine to go to the DM and offer to let him use the Monster Vault. It's even fine to come to a public forum and say "I'm having this problem with what the DM is doing, what are some things I can do?" But the player has to understand that this is his problem, not the DM's, and that the DM is absolutely right in showing where the monsters are however he wants.
Agreed. But a DM should try and tailor the game to his players as well.
And the solution to make everyone happy exsist. Put letter's on tokens. (seriously, easy solution).
The fact that he bought the Monster Vault and offered it to the DM doesn't make complaining about the DM's style not reprehensible.
Hyperbole much? Out of dozens of the positive aspects of this DM, I find one thing that is bothering the players, and I thought I had a helpful solution. Are DMs suddenly on such a pedestal that constructive criticism is verboten? It's a game, not an S&M contract.
EDIT: There are three pages of the DMG devoted to tailoring your game to different types of players, so it's actually in the freakin' rules that a DM should be willing to bend a bit.
The fact that he bought the Monster Vault and offered it to the DM doesn't make complaining about the DM's style not reprehensible.
Hyperbole much? Out of dozens of the positive aspects of this DM, I find one thing that is bothering the players, and I thought I had a helpful solution. Are DMs suddenly on such a pedestal that constructive criticism is verboten? It's a game, not an S&M contract.
EDIT: There are three pages of the DMG devoted to tailoring your game to different types of players, so it's actually in the freakin' rules that a DM should be willing to bend a bit.
The pages in the DMG talk about things like saying yes to characters actions. For example, it advises that a player who has a cool idea about leaping from a table to a chandelier and swinging across the room, is something you should say yes to. Or it says that if a player has a cool idea for the story that requires that the store across the street sells pastries, the DM should run with it unless there is a reason not to.
The DMG does not say that DM's should use figs over tokens over marking letters on the map to note where monsters are.
The DM's who support public play are frequently underappreciated, and there are far too many people who never take their turn behind the screen. Many of the good ones we've had get burned out because they always have to DM, or no one else will. So frankly, yes, I think a complaint about precious immersion being lost because the DM wants to designate monsters by drawing them on the board is selfish, arrogant and whiny.
You're on the right track with your subject line. Build a PC based on a Sesame Street character, and play that origin hard. "Oh wow, I'm being attacked by the letter G. I have (interrupt power), and I'm going to try to hit the letter G with the number 23. Does the letter G have a Will defense higher than 23?"
Best advice, by far. I had an ecoutners DM who used storm troopers for every enemy - I responed with lots of "I am father" and "Kind of short for a stormtropper" one-liners. Play a vampire, work on your The Count laugh. "My burst hit's three targets. One! Two! Three! Ha Ha Ha!" "This attack is brought to you by the letter P. For Pain! Ha Ha Ha!"
If you don't like that solution though, change games. You are interested in playing an immersive game, your DM wants to run a number crunching game, nothing wrong with either style but if he doesn't want to change then that is that.
The fact that he bought the Monster Vault and offered it to the DM doesn't make complaining about the DM's style not reprehensible.
Hyperbole much? Out of dozens of the positive aspects of this DM, I find one thing that is bothering the players, and I thought I had a helpful solution. Are DMs suddenly on such a pedestal that constructive criticism is verboten? It's a game, not an S&M contract.
EDIT: There are three pages of the DMG devoted to tailoring your game to different types of players, so it's actually in the freakin' rules that a DM should be willing to bend a bit.
The pages in the DMG talk about things like saying yes to characters actions. For example, it advises that a player who has a cool idea about leaping from a table to a chandelier and swinging across the room, is something you should say yes to. Or it says that if a player has a cool idea for the story that requires that the store across the street sells pastries, the DM should run with it unless there is a reason not to.
The DMG does not say that DM's should use figs over tokens over marking letters on the map to note where monsters are.
The DM's who support public play are frequently underappreciated, and there are far too many people who never take their turn behind the screen. Many of the good ones we've had get burned out because they always have to DM, or no one else will. So frankly, yes, I think a complaint about precious immersion being lost because the DM wants to designate monsters by drawing them on the board is selfish, arrogant and whiny.
No, the DMG talks about the following, on page 8 (regarding player motivations):
"Engage the explorer by providing rich descriptions, and using cool maps and props."
I don't think this could be any more clear.
I agree with you about public play DMs being underappreciated, but you're going into a level of "DMs can do no wrong" that I frankly find a bit disturbing (and selfish, arrogant, and whiny). I was a DM for six years, and I never had anything close to your attitude. If a player pointed out one of my faults, I didn't take it as a personal insult, but as a sign that my players cared about the game... I looked at it as a growth experience.
I'm with JRedGiant
You want to make the logistical mess of combat harder for your DM because page 8 of the DMG says so.
I'm with JRedGiant
I don't see how using tokens with letter's on them is harder...
Serisouly. No need to fight over the last orange when there's a truckload around the corner.
You want to make the logistical mess of combat harder for your DM because page 8 of the DMG says so.
I'm with JRedGiant
At this point, he has, for example, five Vs for goblins. They are not labeled V1, V2, V3, V4, or V5 (this I could understand), so I can't see how making them tokens makes them "harder", especially since I'm totally willing to pay for those magnetic things you can snap on the bottom that would actually label them 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. There have not been any encounters so far with more than three types of monsters, so I'm just not getting the "It would be harder with tokens" idea.
All of the DMs out there... could we get a vote on how often you think a player is "out of line" for offering to BUY YOU gaming aids that would make the game more enjoyable for your players at absolutely no downside other than a tiny bit of change?
It's a bit of a buzzkill to watch all the other groups enjoying visually exciting combat while I'm being attacked by the alphabet.
He should be berated and ridiculed for making this complaint in the first place.
No. That's against the CoC. So, the options are really to help or to not respond.
If you're going to call a vote, let's be clear then. The vote is actually this: Is it out of line for a player at a public venue to complain about a DM who is graciously volunteering his time and hard work for the enjoyment of the players, with statements like this?It's a bit of a buzzkill to watch all the other groups enjoying visually exciting combat while I'm being attacked by the alphabet.
I vote that it's sarcasm and venting. Yes, it's complaining. But no, that doesn't mean that it is unjustified or cruel in intent. That is how some people express themselves. So, it isn't out of line. His other actions show that he is trying to make the game better. Look at what I quoted from you and then what you quoted from him and ask yourself if you were out of line.
@The OP:
I find myself a bit torn. I've used pennies, nickels, and dimes to run combats, but then again, I've only run a few real life games and that was the best I had to work with; and it was only going to be one-time thing with a couple of people who hadn't played D&D very much (and who honestly would have done the same thing). On the other hand, this is an official event and if there are problems, they should be solved by consensus. Which is what the OP is going for.
I don't know if any of the ideas are going to work, but suggest a few. Try to see if your DM has any ideas and offer to help keep track of important game elements that way he won't need to rely so much on letters on the map/tokens.
If you're going to call a vote, let's be clear then. The vote is actually this: Is it out of line for a player at a public venue to complain about a DM who is graciously volunteering his time and hard work for the enjoyment of the players, with statements like this?It's a bit of a buzzkill to watch all the other groups enjoying visually exciting combat while I'm being attacked by the alphabet.
That's a fair point, I could have probably been more diplomatic about it. I guess I'm just frustrated because there didn't seem to be much room for discussion... I just kind of got an "I'm not using them" answer.
You want to make the logistical mess of combat harder for your DM because page 8 of the DMG says so.
I'm with JRedGiant
At this point, he has, for example, five Vs for goblins. They are not labeled V1, V2, V3, V4, or V5 (this I could understand), so I can't see how making them tokens makes them "harder", especially since I'm totally willing to pay for those magnetic things you can snap on the bottom that would actually label them 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. There have not been any encounters so far with more than three types of monsters, so I'm just not getting the "It would be harder with tokens" idea.
All of the DMs out there... could we get a vote on how often you think a player is "out of line" for offering to BUY YOU gaming aids that would make the game more enjoyable for your players at absolutely no downside other than a tiny bit of change?
Well just like to add you never mentioned really that he was just using say five V's for all the goblins and not numbering those V's. I will say that in light of that fact, I do agree a little bit with you. A little bit. I'm not saying the DM is wrong for using letters, but I can understand how it can be confusing if he's using the same letter for all those goblins without designating which one is which. Unless he's using different colored markers, then that would be fine.
That being said though you continually bring up the fact that you bought tokens and feel unappreciated for it. Like you should get an award or a congratulations. But again what you did is buy the Vault then blindside the DM right before the game by trying to push the tokens on him to use, which to me as I said before, comes across as insulting.
It's been pointed out that the real issue is yours and not the DM. The best advice I've seen here on this topic, and offered as a suggestion, is to sit down with the DM and talk with him about it. Maybe there is a compromise that can be made, but without talking to him you'll never know. And as for that whole bit about how "It's in the rules for the DM to tailor his game to the players" business, seriously...you're taking it a little too far. Now like I just said above, I totally understand given the new information, that if he's using the same letter for all the goblins but not designating which one is which, that can be frustrating because it might be hard something to keep track of which goblin is which, which could be difficult if you're trying to set up a combo or whatever strategy. I'll give you that.
But at most I would say suggesting to the DM to put V1, 2, 3, etc and number the letters from now on so that way you and the group can keep track of which monster is which. Aside from that if letters are seriously blocking you that badly from immersing in the game then again, the advice is to leave the group. Because it does sound like in part that even if the DM numbered the letters you still wouldn't be happy with it and would still prefer miniatures or tokens over this DM's style. And as I mentioned before, in regards to the whole "It would be harder with tokens" thing that you bring up, most likely the comment from the DM(because I think that's where it's coming from, could be wrong), is because you blindsided him right before the game when he obviously would've already had everything planned out, battles labeled and mapped or whatever, the whole nine yards. So understand that it might not actually be "harder" to use tokens so much as you trying to push them on him at the last minute would've caused issues, as I mentioned above.
Now you could say you bought it for them and give them the tokens, but in doing so can you guarantee that there will be no issues from other players knowing you got a gift for the DM and not get any compensation or the store you game at might have rules about players giving "gifts" to DM's.
It is possible that the DM might be too set in their ways to change and want to use the letters, but they might also be watching out for you as a gamer and themselves as a DM.
Personally as a DM for several years I have used tokens/minis, and they can be a pain at times due to having to find the right tokens and know I just put a fig out and tell the gamers "Yes it's an orc, but tonight it's an elf" just to designate between the five other orcs on the table.
Sounds like your dm is set in his ways though.
This is the advice I give all LFR palyers, if you are unhappy join a different table or run the games yourself. If you become known as the player that complains or bitches then you will be selected last when tables are created.
Is it out of line for a player at a public venue to complain about a DM who is graciously volunteering his time and hard work for the enjoyment of the players, with statements like this?It's a bit of a buzzkill to watch all the other groups enjoying visually exciting combat while I'm being attacked by the alphabet.
As someone who is basically "always a DM, never a player", I'd have to vote "No".
I don't think the OP is out of line at all to be annoyed that his DM seems unwilling to make any effort to tailor his style to his players. If something I was doing as DM was seriously spoiling my players' feeling of immersion or willing suspension of disbelief, I would really hope they would let me know and I'd sure as heck see it as part of my 'job' as DM to at least try to do things differently. If one of my players bought me something to improve my DMing, I cannot even imagine turning the offer down without even trying it out for a session.
Being a volunteer doesn't automatically immunise someone from criticism, and being a DM doesn't mean you're some unimpeachable saint. The DM is just another guy or girl sitting at the table with a bunch of other guys and girls playing a game. He or she has just as much responsibility to fit in with the group as the players do. If the DM is doing something that spoils the enjoyment of the other people at the table, he or she should be asked (nicely) to change his or her behaviour, just like a player would be.
And if the DM is not enjoying the game every bit as much as the players, if he or she sees all the prep required as hard work deserving of respect rather than as enjoyable and its own reward, then he or she probably should not be DMing.
And if the DM is not enjoying the game every bit as much as the players, if he or she sees all the prep required as hard work deserving of respect rather than as enjoyable and its own reward, then he or she probably should not be DMing.
Recipe for there being no public play D&D whatsoever if I've ever seen one.
Recipe for there being no public play D&D whatsoever if I've ever seen one.
I do not accept the implication that DMs who don't actually enjoy DMing and only do it to get respect or out of a sense of duty are the sine qua non of public RPG events.
And if the DM is not enjoying the game every bit as much as the players, if he or she sees all the prep required as hard work deserving of respect rather than as enjoyable and its own reward, then he or she probably should not be DMing.
Recipe for there being no public play D&D whatsoever if I've ever seen one.
Why? I'm not saying that players shouldn't respect DMs or that DMs shouldn't expect some respect for DMing, but if the only reason why someone is DMing is to gain respect from others, then they're doing it wrong. There needs to be a balance: DMs need to enjoy creating the game for the players and the players need to respect the DM for that. Players aren't going to respect the DM if he's just there for the respect, the ego boost.
I'm not going to respect a DM who thinks that his opinion is law. He may have the final say, but he needs to justify it and take into account what I think. If you want respect, you've got to earn it.
A: People who prefer to DM, or enjoy both equally.
B: People who prefer to play, but are willing to DM because it's necessary for public play to occur.
C: People who will never DM (for whatever reason)
In my opinion, A is an extremely narrow catagory. B is a somewhat wider catagory. C contains the vast majority of gamers.
A and B combined need to represent at least 14% of the public play population, or people get turned away because you don't have enough DM's. And that is assuming that everyone in catagories A and B DM exclusively, never, ever, stepping from behind the screen and playing. If you want to let them play, you need that pool to be a higher percentage.
Duskweaver's suggestion cuts catagory B out of the mix entirely, and that means that catagory A has to cover at least 14%. Frankly, it just doesn't.
This isn't about DM's doing it to be on some power trip. It's about math.
If I just used a battlemat I think a lot of the players who are quite casual would have stopped playing by now.
I have to admit it is a lot more prep time and money, though. But to me it's worth it for the players enjoyment.
Because if only DM's who are enjoying the game every bit as much as the players DM, then there are going to be few to no DM's. The vast majority of gamers prefer to play than to DM. Put it in three catagories:
A: People who prefer to DM, or enjoy both equally.
B: People who prefer to play, but are willing to DM because it's necessary for public play to occur.
C: People who will never DM (for whatever reason)
In my opinion, A is an extremely narrow catagory. B is a somewhat wider catagory. C contains the vast majority of gamers.
A and B combined need to represent at least 14% of the public play population, or people get turned away because you don't have enough DM's. And that is assuming that everyone in catagories A and B DM exclusively, never, ever, stepping from behind the screen and playing. If you want to let them play, you need that pool to be a higher percentage.
Duskweaver's suggestion cuts catagory B out of the mix entirely, and that means that catagory A has to cover at least 14%. Frankly, it just doesn't.
This isn't about DM's doing it to be on some power trip. It's about math.
You don't have non-anecdotal numbers to back that up. Nor are your assumptions completely correct.
For instance, can you compare the enjoyment of DMing with the enjoyment of playing? They're two different things. There are plenty of people who just DM, but a lot of DMs play and DM. Who says that they prefer one or the other? Why couldn't they enjoy both and try to do both based on their virtues? To truly get an accurate picture (pun), you'd need to draw a Venn Diagram. One circle contains those who enjoy playing D&D, the other would contain those who enjoy DMing D&D. Those circles are going to overlap. If people were rational and your assumptions were correct, category B wouldn't exist: Why do something that gives you less enjoyment than another thing, especially when there are financial and time issues associated with it? You'd be better off not DMing at all and trying something else when you are unable to find a game.
You're saying that Duskweaver cuts out category B. But that isn't necessarily true. It cuts out the people who aren't in the Venn Diagram of the DM Circle: those who enjoy DMing. That's not a bad thing.
most likely the comment from the DM(because I think that's where it's coming from, could be wrong)
Oh god, I hope not... I hadn't even thought that he might be cruising these threads. The last thing I want is for him to get the idea that I don't like his DM'ing, because I do, other than this one detail.
Because if only DM's who are enjoying the game every bit as much as the players DM, then there are going to be few to no DM's. The vast majority of gamers prefer to play than to DM. Put it in three catagories:
A: People who prefer to DM, or enjoy both equally.
B: People who prefer to play, but are willing to DM because it's necessary for public play to occur.
C: People who will never DM (for whatever reason)
I'm actually in category D: People who would be fine with never doing anything but DM'ing (that's all I did with 1E, I was never a player... not once), but just started 4E and feel that it's their duty to the players to know the system before they get behind the screen.
Do you tell family that when they ask for help?
Duskweaver's suggestion cuts catagory B out of the mix entirely
No, it doesn't. It's perfectly possible for someone to prefer playing to DMing, but still get just as much enjoyment out of DMing as their players do out of playing.
But you seem to have fixated on one (perhaps inartfully expressed) sentence from my post and completely ignored the point I was making.
DMing is not some weighty duty that makes those willing to take it on into living saints that the ungrateful wretches they DM for are unworthy to criticise. The DM is (or should be) having fun playing a game, just like his or her players are.
While I vastly prefer playing to dming, I always have a ball running a game.
DMing is not some weighty duty that makes those willing to take it on into living saints that the ungrateful wretches they DM for are unworthy to criticise
If you could squeeze just a bit more hyperbole in that sentence, you might be in contention for the record.
Any way you slice it, D&D is designed for players to have more fun than DM's. The vast majority of content is written for players, and the vast majority of marketing is targeted at players. Players who stick with their characters over time earn more character rewards.
A local system in which a small minority handle the vast majority of DM duties is simply not sustainable. DM's will eventually burn out and stop DMing. This means that a single player will be forced to move into the DM role, or 4-6 players have to simply stop showing up.
A sustainable organized play environment needs to have a large pool of experienced D&D players switching in and out from behind the screen, so that the every DM is DMing once out of every four or five times, unless they really desire to do so more often.
This, of course, never happens, which is why organized play is constantly dependant upon churning new players to move from the rank of newbie, to experienced player, to DM, to burnout, over a cycle of about 2-3 years.
To truly get an accurate picture (pun), you'd need to draw a Venn Diagram. One circle contains those who enjoy playing D&D, the other would contain those who enjoy DMing D&D. Those circles are going to overlap.
Actually, I suspect your Venn Diagram would be much closer to a large circle (Those who enjoy playing D&D) containing a smaller circle almost or possibly completely in its entirety (those who enjoy DMing D&D). I find it very unlikely that there are any DM's who only enjoy DMing and dislike playing, but I'm barely willing to concede there are a small amount of them out there. My guess is that if they do exist, they would also be disproportionately represented on the forums.
By the way, I'm totally cool with doing most of the work... if my DM doesn't think it would hurt immersion by me knowing what the monsters look like in advance (I know this could be an issue), I'll print out copies of their pictures, get out the 1"/2" hole punch, and make the tokens myself. I'll buy the magnetic bottoms and letter or number them. Not averse to doing the grunt-work.
Have you suggested this to your DM?
Sit down talk with your DM, about how you are feeling and ask him what he thinks you could do to help. Communication goes a long way. Since your DM sounds like he is great in every other aspect of DMing, he probably would be willing to work with you about this.
I sometimes wonder how my players feel during my games, where, every combat, they fight a handful of goblins and/or orcs (any Medium-sized monster) and maybe a troll or two (any Large-sized monster). I've considered getting the Monster Vault set for the tokens, but we play with one member joining us through webcam/Skype, and it'd be difficult for him to process the battle at that point if all the monsters are flat against the table (he has trouble even with the miniatures).
If your DM is insisting on using letters to represent monsters, then you should insist that he represent your character with "@".
Oh no you didn't...
"Alright, now that Grimdorf the Mighty has gone into stealth mode, it's Forward Slash's turn... sigh."
D&D is designed for players to have more fun than DM's.
I have no idea what you're talking about. DM'ing, although it has its moments, is far more fun for me... if I were more familiar with 4E, I'd be behind the screen right now. I'm doing major prep work for DM'ing this summer (I'll know the system well enough by then)... bought a CAD program to help with mapping, already plotting out the campaign, etc. Love it!
Any way you slice it, D&D is designed for players to have more fun than DM's.
I disagree. The game's designers seem to disagree too:
"Many players find that being the Dungeon Master is the best part of the game." - Rules Compendium page 9
"It's just as vital for everyone at the table to cooperate toward making the game fun for everyone as it is for the player characters to cooperate within the adventure." - DMG page 4
"It's not the DM's job to entertain the players and make sure they have fun. Every person playing the game is responsible for the fun of the game." - DMG page 7
I was hoping we'd abandon the whole "I'm doing you a favor by being your dungeon master" routine with this edition. Alas.
Anyone old enough to have played 3.5 in a public store should also be mature enough to recognize that volunteering for your entertainment is doing you a favor, and you should be thanking him for doing it.
I'm old enough to have bought the AD&D core books new, and I'm mature and experienced enough to recognize that anyone who is "volunteering for your entertainment" is someone I don't want as my DM.
I want a DM who is volunteering because he either (a) enjoys being a DM or (b, not as good but acceptable) wants to have regular opportunities as a player and considers an occasional stint as DM to be part of the price he pays for those opportunities.
In other words, I want a DM who is there for his own benefit - not for mine.
Any way you slice it, D&D is designed for players to have more fun than DM's. The vast majority of content is written for players, and the vast majority of marketing is targeted at players. Players who stick with their characters over time earn more character rewards.
Um.... no. Just no.
As a player, I get to use every feat, power, and item I qualify to use.
As a DM, I get to use every feat, power, and item. And every monster. And every piece of interesting terrain. And the rules for creating skill challenges, distributing loot, creating monsters and NPCs...
The comparison isn't even close. As a PC, I get to pick one corner of the sandbox that is D&D, and make it looks pretty. As the DM, I get complete control over the entire sandbox. There are a couple people I've gamed with who DM under the "I guess it's my turn" mentality, and they are invariably the worst. And certainly, DMing is not for everyone. But to try and claim that the game is somehow rigged against DMs is silly.
Moreover, the point is irrelevant to the initial topic. If the DM is presenting the game in a way that makes it difficult for the players to engage, then something is wrong. A discussion should occur, a compromise should be reached, and if that's not possible then an unfortunate split should occur. And that's not because the DM is somehow sacrosanct or the player feels entitled or any of that BS -- it's because D&D is at its core a cooperative storytelling game, and if there's no cooperation in the storytelling then it tends to turn into a piss-poor video game.