Young Black Dragon too much for 4 1st levels? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Young Black Dragon too much for 4 1st levels?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dr_manhatten_dup
Sep 25, 2008 13:00:03 Hi

I guess the title says it all. I'm new to DMing d&d having just two sessions under my belt. Players are all new as well.

In our upcoming session I'm planning to have the PCs come up against a young black dragon. After looking over my notes I'm getting cold feet, will a young black be too much for them to handle?

The group consists of a wizard, paladin, ranger and warlock. Both the players and I are new to 4e and the tactics so far haven't been spectacular, though the players are getting the hang of it.

I don't want a TPK, but the encounters(2-3 levels above the PC's) so far have been relatively safe for the PC's and a dragon would be cool at this point of the story.

So, am I going to kill them all?

-EDIT- Damn, should've posted this in the GM section. How do I move this?
#2
innuit
Sep 25, 2008 13:04:16 don't. the aura will make all of them miss and you will have a TPK on your hands. 6 lvl 3's had a hard time.
#3
dr_manhatten_dup
Sep 25, 2008 13:32:49
...6 lvl 3's had a hard time.

wow, I guess I won't then. Thanks for the advice.
#4
Drax_Hoak
Sep 25, 2008 13:46:57 I dunno, I had a party of six second-levels defeat one. It was a dragonborn paladin, two elf rangers, a human wizard, tiefling warlock and half-elf cleric. I used a DDM map, sunken cave or water-filled cave or something (can't remember the exact name) as its lair, and was having it submerge and use stealth so that the PCs would lose track of it, clear the Paladin's mark, and the dragon could ambush them again. At one point early in the combat it looked distinctly in the dragon's favor, but the PCs turned the tide.

The Cloud of Darkness DID make it nigh-unhittable, but when it established its zone, the PCs would retreat behind the nearby walls and harry it with happy fun ball (Flaming Sphere) forcing it to either stick around with no targets and taking damage, or retreat back into the water.

The paladin took a ferocious beating, but one of the rangers never got hit and most of the rest of the party were damaged or bloodied but not close to dropping.
#5
Cpt_Micha
Sep 25, 2008 13:52:32 It will be very very hard for a party of level 1s to overcome a level 4 Solo. I'm not saying it's impossible. But someone's going to take a serious beating most likely.

If your players have an excellent grasp of tactics, I'd say go for it. Since you can in theory handle encounters up to five levels higher than your group (maybe even six depending on the encounter) Just keep in mind it might be very hard for the Pcs go over come the beast.
#6
howie23
Sep 25, 2008 14:08:53
In our upcoming session I'm planning to have the PCs come up against a young black dragon. After looking over my notes I'm getting cold feet, will a young black be too much for them to handle?

I don't want a TPK, but the encounters(2-3 levels above the PC's) so far have been relatively safe for the PC's and a dragon would be cool at this point of the story.

Yes, it's going to be too much. You can reduce the strength of it to a level 1 or level 2 solo, and they might be ok, otherwise, you'll have a mess unless you play it tactically weak or provide them with terrain or circumstance conditions in their favor.

"You come upon a black dragon eating a recent victim." (game mechanics: it's partially damaged and has no action points remaining for the day)
#7
savate2
Sep 25, 2008 14:32:36 It's hard to say. dice rolls mean everything. My first intro game I had my PC's go against a young white dragon fresh for their second day. All first level, Dwarf fighter, Dragonborn warlord (insp), and Tiefling Taclord.

Round 1 all beat dragon for Init. all blow daily with a nat 20, YES all three in front of me, all three blew AP. The dragon was bloodied before it acted and dead 2 rounds later with no magic items in the party save a couple of potions that they didn't need to use. yeah the dwarf (my wife) wasn't happy but she lived.
#8
dr_manhatten_dup
Sep 25, 2008 14:58:26 I might mention that the PC's will most likely have 5 healing potions between them. Will that make enough of a difference maybe?

Any suggestions on what a good substitute for the dragon might be? A good "end of level" boss.
#9
nowiwantmydmg
Sep 25, 2008 15:12:03 If the party is either:

A) Good at Tactics
B) Has multiple strikers and 1 fighter or
C) Multiple Leaders

Then no, not to hard, hint that it's coming in some way so they preserve their AP's and dailies though.

Yes healing potions will help.
#10
Neutronium_Dragon
Sep 25, 2008 17:11:33 The young black dragon clocks in at 875 XP. The target XP for four 1st level characters is 400.

As-is, it's between a 5th and 6th level encounter for them - way too much. Crossing your fingers and hoping that the stars will align for your PCs isn't a good bet. Most of the time you will end up with a TPK regardless. This was essentially what people got put up against in one of the preview adventures and it wiped the vast majority of the parties.

Leave the dragon until they're level 3 or thereabouts.
#11
yamishinobi
Sep 25, 2008 19:44:56
The young black dragon clocks in at 875 XP. The target XP for four 1st level characters is 400.

As-is, it's between a 5th and 6th level encounter for them - way too much. Crossing your fingers and hoping that the stars will align for your PCs isn't a good bet. Most of the time you will end up with a TPK regardless. This was essentially what people got put up against in one of the preview adventures and it wiped the vast majority of the parties.

Leave the dragon until they're level 3 or thereabouts.

leave it till they are level 4 or 5.
#12
enhenry
Sep 26, 2008 12:51:17 Just lower the sucker. Rip off about 55 hit points, drop his defenses each by 2, and lower his attacks and damage by 1 or 2 points. Still fearsome, still usable, and within range of 4 1st level PCs to beat him.

Or, use a young White dragon (Level 3 Solo).
#13
CelticPaladin
Sep 26, 2008 15:02:58
Just lower the sucker. Rip off about 55 hit points, drop his defenses each by 2, and lower his attacks and damage by 1 or 2 points. Still fearsome, still usable, and within range of 4 1st level PCs to beat him.

Or, use a young White dragon (Level 3 Solo).

Use the Level 3 solo White Dragon stats, just call it a black dragon.

Wallah.
#14
dr_manhatten_dup
Sep 26, 2008 15:56:35 In the end I've decided to lower the Young Black to a level 2. Tomorrow we'll see if the guys survive.

Thanks for the suggestions and comments.
#15
Titanium_Dragon
Sep 26, 2008 18:36:42 Argh, ninjad. I think your decision was a good one.
#16
dr_manhatten_dup
Sep 28, 2008 3:37:10 The session was last night. Only one pc casualty, the poor dwarf gave his life to save the wizard. The level 2 Black put up a hell of a fight and got to use its dragon breath 3 or 4 times.
#17
kalanth
Sep 28, 2008 7:04:11
I dunno, I had a party of six second-levels defeat one.

As have I. It is possible depending on how the players work and how you run the dragon.

Just lower the sucker. Rip off about 55 hit points, drop his defenses each by 2, and lower his attacks and damage by 1 or 2 points. Still fearsome, still usable, and within range of 4 1st level PCs to beat him.

Here is your sage like advice. This is exactly what I did for mine, shaving the dragon down and using the following. It got dicey, and they were level 2 not one, but in the end it had the right feel for a dragon battle. Make sure you give them an escape route so they have that option if it goes badly for them. On top of that, remember that if you bring something to 0 hp or lower you have the option of just knocking them out instead of killing them. Have the Young Dragon do that and tie it into the story somehow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dr_manhatten_dup Sep 25, 2008 13:00:03	Hi I guess the title says it all. I'm new to DMing d&d having just two sessions under my belt. Players are all new as well. In our upcoming session I'm planning to have the PCs come up against a young black dragon. After looking over my notes I'm getting cold feet, will a young black be too much for them to handle? The group consists of a wizard, paladin, ranger and warlock. Both the players and I are new to 4e and the tactics so far haven't been spectacular, though the players are getting the hang of it. I don't want a TPK, but the encounters(2-3 levels above the PC's) so far have been relatively safe for the PC's and a dragon would be cool at this point of the story. So, am I going to kill them all? -EDIT- Damn, should've posted this in the GM section. How do I move this?
#2 innuit Sep 25, 2008 13:04:16	don't. the aura will make all of them miss and you will have a TPK on your hands. 6 lvl 3's had a hard time.
#3 dr_manhatten_dup Sep 25, 2008 13:32:49	...6 lvl 3's had a hard time. wow, I guess I won't then. Thanks for the advice.
#4 Drax_Hoak Sep 25, 2008 13:46:57	I dunno, I had a party of six second-levels defeat one. It was a dragonborn paladin, two elf rangers, a human wizard, tiefling warlock and half-elf cleric. I used a DDM map, sunken cave or water-filled cave or something (can't remember the exact name) as its lair, and was having it submerge and use stealth so that the PCs would lose track of it, clear the Paladin's mark, and the dragon could ambush them again. At one point early in the combat it looked distinctly in the dragon's favor, but the PCs turned the tide. The Cloud of Darkness DID make it nigh-unhittable, but when it established its zone, the PCs would retreat behind the nearby walls and harry it with happy fun ball (Flaming Sphere) forcing it to either stick around with no targets and taking damage, or retreat back into the water. The paladin took a ferocious beating, but one of the rangers never got hit and most of the rest of the party were damaged or bloodied but not close to dropping.
#5 Cpt_Micha Sep 25, 2008 13:52:32	It will be very very hard for a party of level 1s to overcome a level 4 Solo. I'm not saying it's impossible. But someone's going to take a serious beating most likely. If your players have an excellent grasp of tactics, I'd say go for it. Since you can in theory handle encounters up to five levels higher than your group (maybe even six depending on the encounter) Just keep in mind it might be very hard for the Pcs go over come the beast.
#6 howie23 Sep 25, 2008 14:08:53	In our upcoming session I'm planning to have the PCs come up against a young black dragon. After looking over my notes I'm getting cold feet, will a young black be too much for them to handle? I don't want a TPK, but the encounters(2-3 levels above the PC's) so far have been relatively safe for the PC's and a dragon would be cool at this point of the story. Yes, it's going to be too much. You can reduce the strength of it to a level 1 or level 2 solo, and they might be ok, otherwise, you'll have a mess unless you play it tactically weak or provide them with terrain or circumstance conditions in their favor. "You come upon a black dragon eating a recent victim." (game mechanics: it's partially damaged and has no action points remaining for the day)
#7 savate2 Sep 25, 2008 14:32:36	It's hard to say. dice rolls mean everything. My first intro game I had my PC's go against a young white dragon fresh for their second day. All first level, Dwarf fighter, Dragonborn warlord (insp), and Tiefling Taclord. Round 1 all beat dragon for Init. all blow daily with a nat 20, YES all three in front of me, all three blew AP. The dragon was bloodied before it acted and dead 2 rounds later with no magic items in the party save a couple of potions that they didn't need to use. yeah the dwarf (my wife) wasn't happy but she lived.
#8 dr_manhatten_dup Sep 25, 2008 14:58:26	I might mention that the PC's will most likely have 5 healing potions between them. Will that make enough of a difference maybe? Any suggestions on what a good substitute for the dragon might be? A good "end of level" boss.
#9 nowiwantmydmg Sep 25, 2008 15:12:03	If the party is either: A) Good at Tactics B) Has multiple strikers and 1 fighter or C) Multiple Leaders Then no, not to hard, hint that it's coming in some way so they preserve their AP's and dailies though. Yes healing potions will help.
#10 Neutronium_Dragon Sep 25, 2008 17:11:33	The young black dragon clocks in at 875 XP. The target XP for four 1st level characters is 400. As-is, it's between a 5th and 6th level encounter for them - way too much. Crossing your fingers and hoping that the stars will align for your PCs isn't a good bet. Most of the time you will end up with a TPK regardless. This was essentially what people got put up against in one of the preview adventures and it wiped the vast majority of the parties. Leave the dragon until they're level 3 or thereabouts.
#11 yamishinobi Sep 25, 2008 19:44:56	The young black dragon clocks in at 875 XP. The target XP for four 1st level characters is 400. As-is, it's between a 5th and 6th level encounter for them - way too much. Crossing your fingers and hoping that the stars will align for your PCs isn't a good bet. Most of the time you will end up with a TPK regardless. This was essentially what people got put up against in one of the preview adventures and it wiped the vast majority of the parties. Leave the dragon until they're level 3 or thereabouts. leave it till they are level 4 or 5.
#12 enhenry Sep 26, 2008 12:51:17	Just lower the sucker. Rip off about 55 hit points, drop his defenses each by 2, and lower his attacks and damage by 1 or 2 points. Still fearsome, still usable, and within range of 4 1st level PCs to beat him. Or, use a young White dragon (Level 3 Solo).
#13 CelticPaladin Sep 26, 2008 15:02:58	Just lower the sucker. Rip off about 55 hit points, drop his defenses each by 2, and lower his attacks and damage by 1 or 2 points. Still fearsome, still usable, and within range of 4 1st level PCs to beat him. Or, use a young White dragon (Level 3 Solo). Use the Level 3 solo White Dragon stats, just call it a black dragon. Wallah.
#14 dr_manhatten_dup Sep 26, 2008 15:56:35	In the end I've decided to lower the Young Black to a level 2. Tomorrow we'll see if the guys survive. Thanks for the suggestions and comments.
#15 Titanium_Dragon Sep 26, 2008 18:36:42	Argh, ninjad. I think your decision was a good one.
#16 dr_manhatten_dup Sep 28, 2008 3:37:10	The session was last night. Only one pc casualty, the poor dwarf gave his life to save the wizard. The level 2 Black put up a hell of a fight and got to use its dragon breath 3 or 4 times.
#17 kalanth Sep 28, 2008 7:04:11	I dunno, I had a party of six second-levels defeat one. As have I. It is possible depending on how the players work and how you run the dragon. Just lower the sucker. Rip off about 55 hit points, drop his defenses each by 2, and lower his attacks and damage by 1 or 2 points. Still fearsome, still usable, and within range of 4 1st level PCs to beat him. Here is your sage like advice. This is exactly what I did for mine, shaving the dragon down and using the following. It got dicey, and they were level 2 not one, but in the end it had the right feel for a dragon battle. Make sure you give them an escape route so they have that option if it goes badly for them. On top of that, remember that if you bring something to 0 hp or lower you have the option of just knocking them out instead of killing them. Have the Young Dragon do that and tie it into the story somehow.