Hello players, I have a curiosity as to what your opinion would be of the following hypothetical situation.
Let's say that your DM has decided that he wants there being a table rule (you might refer to them as club rules or group rules) that only precision edged dice (like Game Science dice, and the sets available from Chessex) are allowed to be used during his game.
Special note: the DM is offering to purchase enough dice so that each player (DM included) has a 7 piece set available to them in conjuction with this becoming a table rule, and to supplement those sets with additional dice (effectively making each "set" contain at least 1d20, 1d12, 4d10, 2d8, 3d6, 2d4)
For informations sake, it's important to note that I am the DM in this hypothetical situation here... just wondering what more players think about the idea in general, as my players tend to prefer going along with whatever I say and complaining about it when I can't hear them instead of actually saying "I don't like that idea."
For my reasons as to why I would want to do this: I have already switched to a set of precision edge dice because, despite constantly trying out various d20s owned by the group - I had an average of 5+ critical hits on the party every session and rarely ever actually failed a roll. Since switching I have had a noticeble reduction in criticals per session and increase in failed rolls - or to put it differently, I have had more genuinely random results.
Also, I have one player that rolls low like clockwork (7-12 1s every session) who does not listen when I suggest he try one of the other dice available... even when it is one that I have rolled a 20 on 4 times in the last hour. This player gets visibly frustrated by this, but doesn't do anything to change the situation - so I want to "force" him to use dice that I know are genuinely random, as I am sure that will improve his play experience given that his current dice obviously favor 1s (and other low numbers).
I guess if they payed, but I like using my sexy warden dice, or my sexy druid dice as the case may be (every time I play a character I like in an extended campaign I buy a set of matching dice) and I would be kinda sad to not be able to use them.
So, with the exception of the guy who can't roll for poo, you're essentially accusing your players of cheating.
At least that'd be the message I'd hear if you were proposing this in real life to me. But unlike your actual players I'd give you direct feedback on the subject....
I woulld use any dice the dm requested in the game. But the Dm should then supply the dice he requires. As a player I just see no need to buy certain dice for the Dm. That's me. As a Dm I don't require anyone to buy anything for the DnD game they do not wish too. That's me too.
Funny. I've seen so many players cheat blantantly (yeah, it's not suspicious that you roll your attacks on the clipboard you're holding...), I've considered something like this before.
If I was a player under you, I'd be all for it. My only request would be that you give us players a "grace period" - 'cuz I'd rather buy my own set of precision dice, so I'd have to order it and wait for it to arrive. I like to own the dice I roll. Maybe I'm funny that way.
I hope this solves whatever problem(s) you're encountering.
I'm actually about to do almost the same thing. I just put in an order for two 7 piece sets and three extra d20s from GameScience.
As far how I'll rule this as DM, I'll make sure everyone is using a precision d20, but I'll be less picky about any other dice.
I actually took the time to make a short statistical study of all my d20s and found out why one ofmy players favored one in particular so much. I discovered three d20s of mine that were just more prone to great numbers over the other ones, as well as one d20 in particular that rolled seven 1's before a single 20.
So yeah, my players will eventually be rolling precision d20s I provide. As for the rest, I'll leave it up to them.
If a DM I was playing under did this, I wouldn't feel insulted per se, but I would probably think that the DM was making mountains out of molehills. I'm not gonna say you shouldn't ever take your hobbies seriously, but everyone's got a certain limit, and this is straddling the line, for me. Admittedly though, that might be because I've never really felt like I was in a gaming situation where loaded dice were an issue.
Personally, I have at least a dozen or so d20s and I have no idea which ones roll better than others; I pick them at random, or based on which one I like the look of that day. It's entirely possible one might be loaded positively or negatively, but since I don't know that, it functions similar to randomness.
However, if I felt there was actually cheating going on (to the extent of, someone regularly using a die they know "rolls well", intentionally, to gain some kind of game advantage... or really for any reason other than fluff/sentimentality), I could understand such a rule, and so I wouldn't complain about it. Much.
I guess if they payed, but I like using my sexy warden dice, or my sexy druid dice as the case may be (every time I play a character I like in an extended campaign I buy a set of matching dice) and I would be kinda sad to not be able to use them.
Exactly this.
I wouldn't have a problem with it (and I'd imagine the rest of my group wouldn't mind). We tend to borrow dice from each other anyway.
Just be sure to explain why you're implimenting this rule so they don't think you're accusing them of cheating.
Well ... I've never really encountered much cheating in the three campaigns I've been dm in the past. I have noticed trends though as you say, like that player with no con modifier SOMEHOW managing to end up with a 56 hp (D8 character) at level 8 ....
But I usually just said "If the dice aint on the table when rolled, and lands within my top half ... then it doesn't get counted."
Mainly because I have shoddy eyesight....
I didn't like telling players what type of dice to roll though .. I only had one stipulation that the numbers were BRIGHT. Some players don't like rolling black on white dice ... I understand ... but I always gave them funny lookks when they wanted to roll engraved, silver coloured dice.
Some players didn't like it, but they got over it ...
Red/black on yellow, white on dark green, black on white (most preferable), black on orange (least preferable, but still visible) ... things I can see XD .... I simply cant read gold numbering .... especially on multi-hued dice. So I don't allow them at my table .... similiarly with engraved dice ... it just registers as a smudgy surface.
Usually I just explain why I don't allow certain dice... "I cant see it ... and games move quicker when I can see what you're rolling, and when all players can read their die efficiently" and usually this is effective enough excuse that players just sorta nod and accept changes.
You can't really help whether a character rolls really poorly ... but generally speaking, although it might not seem it ... if he's rolling a normal dice, he'll probably be averaging 10-11 on d20s.
I had one dice though, and because of poor molding I rolled heaps of 6's, 19's, 1's and 4's ... I changed it within three sessions ... (as the first two sessions I thought it was just bad luck, but then I noticed the trend and poor manufacturing) ... but if your player doesn't want to, then you can't make him ...
It's not like's he's cheating, so don't push the matter. He'll eventually get upset and change ... or merely use one of your dice on his own accord, and there won't be any bad feelings for it.
As for your primary hypothetical question ... if you are supplying the dice ... then yeah I guess so. But I would explain in great detail why.
Thanks for the replies everyone, it's good to see other points of view on a subject while trying to decide how to proceed with something like this.
I did want to ask for a bit further discussion on certain details of some response though - namely anyone feeling like I would be accusing them of cheating.
I own all the dice that my group uses, with the exception of my player that constantly rolls 1s (and no - I do not believe that the dice still have a 10-11 average, more than 1/4 of his rolls every session coming up as 1s very obviously prevents that given that he has rolled only two total natural 20s in the 4 years I have known him, despite using the same d20 in a minimum of two weekly games every week since then.), so I don't think that the players would perceive me saying "I'd like you to use this set of dice as I am sure they are more genuinely random than other dice that I own, preventing all of us from accidentally weighting the odds in one way or another just by picking a die to roll," as an acusation of cheating.
I could see the player thinking I do not trust them if they were using dice that they owned and took with them between sessions, as I could somehow believe they had intentionally tampered with the dice.
Was there a reason other than the one I talk about in this post that you believe someone would view my request to use a specific sort of die as an accusation of somehow cheating?
I mean, I know that my players do not cheat. I am sure of it, as we all roll plainly in the open (well, I roll behind a screen but have told my players that they may audit my dice or rolls at any time that they wish as I refuse to cheat - even if it favors them) and I know that the dice (my collection) have not been tampered with.
...and on another reason why I was thinking of this dice regulation: players testing out dice to find the "good" ones. Sure, it doesn't take much time to roll a few dice and pick out which one seems to be coming up on the numbers you want more frequently than the others - but it takes longer than knowing that all the available dice are near-precisely the same in every way other than color and will not have a noticeble difference in performance. Not to forget that it would also prevent the players from delaying themselves in the middle of a game by trying to switch dice, as no matter which precision die they switch to - it will roll the same way.
I'd be quite happy to play with well-crafted dice supplied by the DM. One less thing to bring to the session.
As for stats, if you can do the Chi-Squared test, and understand its limitations, then you have a way to tell if a die might be biased. However, randomness is difficult to prove in practice, and a sequence of 7x1 before 1x20 does not necessarily prove bias for example (if would be pretty damning if you had only rolled 8 times to get that result, and yes it is suspicious).
I brought up a similar instance with my players, everyone was pretty happy that we were going to be moving to a set of dice we felt we could rely on more. We haven't looked back either.
Why exactly does that player not want to switch dice, even if they are obviously biased? Does he like rolling ones or something? 
Regardless; if I were a player and the DM were providing high precision dice for everyone I'd be cool with that; gives me more money to spend on rulebooks or miniatures instead.
I brought up a similar instance with my players, everyone was pretty happy that we were going to be moving to a set of dice we felt we could rely on more. We haven't looked back either.
That is awesome to hear.
I know for sure that two of my six players are already sold on the idea of using precision edge dice, and don't really expect any opposition or what have you from any of the others except for the guy that has always rolled noticebly poorly... since he has so far refused to switch dice despite their being dice available...
I believe the player is of the dice superstitious sort, as he has stated previously that he likes to keep using whatever dice he used for the first session with a character - even continuing to borrow specific dice from me in an instance where he forgot to bring his own on the first night of starting a particular game, yet still bringing his dice bag on further nights. Guess we will see once I have a chance to mention to him that I intend to buy a set as blue as possible, his favorite color, for him to use.
Your game, your rules. The players should not have a thing to complain about when you are paying for the dice you require that they use. On the other hand, not everyone will understand about the IMprecision of typical dice and furthermore WILL NOT CARE. In that case they will only see your insistance about dice as an obnoxious imposition even if you are buying.
It doesn't have to make sense - it's just people. And yet there is a grain of sense in such attitudes. After all, this IS just D&D. It's not Vegas. If I use my black and yellow dice sets simply because I like the colors what difference does it REALLY make to how much fun everybody has? Is it really THAT important to the conduct of your game that the random numbers be PERFECTLY random? So what if one player favors a die that rolls well - and another favors a die that rolls poorly? If each are happy with their dice does it really affect the purity of your game if the players themselves are NOT as concerned as you with clinical degrees of randomness?
If they are likely to look on this as just "annoying technical buffoonery" then I'd be inclined to buy them a set each (that they keep) as presents. If they don't have their own dice anyway then this might also make them feel more involved in the game.
One of my players rolls a ridiculous number of 20's (I've seen multiple crits in single combats on numerous occasions) and while he's not the sort to cheat, he's also the sort who would feel that was the luck of the draw; him getting a die that was machined to roll that way, and would feel slighted if I brought it up.
I likely will bring it up at some point, I plan to buy a precision set for everyone in our group (and 2 or 3 for me) as a small X-mas present this year. I'll probably fan them out on the table and just let everyone pick which color they want.
So I guess that yeah, that would be pretty cool of you actually, I wouldn't be bothered.
It is my opinion that the DM in this situation is on a power trip. You found some dice you like and now you think everyone else should like the dice you like, and as the DM you think you are entitled to force them. Wrong.
It is a game. Play to have fun. If you think a player lacks the character (not talking about an adventuring hero here) to not cheat, don't play with that person. Calling them a cheater, directly or indirectly, is not condusive to a fun environment for anyone involved.
It is my opinion that the DM in this situation is on a power trip. You found some dice you like and now you think everyone else should like the dice you like, and as the DM you think you are entitled to force them. Wrong.
It is a game. Play to have fun. If you think a player lacks the character (not talking about an adventuring hero here) to not cheat, don't play with that person. Calling them a cheater, directly or indirectly, is not condusive to a fun environment for anyone involved.
Apparently you didn't exactly read what the OP said.
1) OP is Dm.
2) The DM was rolling insane amounts of 20s before using the presicion dice.
3) The player in question is actually doing compleatly terrible, rolling insane amounts of natural 1s.
So the OP (DM) wants to try and get the player dice that clear out the Players terrible rolls.
I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I personally would not like this, but that's mostly just because of a feeling of possession. They're MY dice, don't touch my dice, stuff like that.
It wouldn't be an issue at our table. For one thing we pretty much long ago got tired of people wrangling about which dice belonged to who and just went to having the DM supply the dice for the table anyhow. All the players in our group have been playing for ages and have pounds of dice anyway, so its not like any one of us can't supply enough for all.
Frankly as far as precision dice go and "bad dice" vs "good dice" I think its overblown. Short of a couple obviously warped dice I've run across I really seriously doubt there are dice out there that are going to roll significantly off from average. Yes, I've seen Lou Zocchi's statistics, but if you actually pay attention to what he's saying any random set of ordinary dice are not going to roll enough different from average to make a difference you will ever notice.
The reason people think there are hot dice and cold dice, etc is purely a result of human psychology. On any given night the chances are half the other players are rolling better than you are, so you always feel like you're not rolling good. You just don't notice the other people that are rolling worse than you. Its the same basic effect as when you stand in line at checkout at a store. The line you're in is always the "slow line". Well obviously it isn't, you just notice the faster moving lines.
This whole debate raged in our game we play online with maptool. The players got more and more convinced that the dice rolling macros "cheated" and gave the DM better rolls. Finally I got tired of it and made a macro that calculated chi squared for everyone for all their d20 rolls. Sure enough, they're utterly random. Doesn't matter, they still complain. Its selective memory. People remember bad things better than good things.
So yeah, if I were playing with the OP I'd just use whatever dice he wants me to use, I really don't care, dice are dice.
Personally, if the DM wanted to buy me shinies, I wouldn't object. However, if your player refuses to give up their d20, then I would think that they might not be willing to give up their dice even if offered new dice.
I also suggest making sure the players don't feel like they are being accused of cheating.
Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder about the fairness of my dice as well. The set I'm currently using seems to be rolling too well. I did one of those end to end tests with my d20's and do notice a difference in height depending on which face I use. That was only with like 4 d20's.
A friend of mine bought some precision dice. However, they are rather pricy. If anything, all I want are d20's. I'm not concerned about the dice with fewer sides being not entirely fair. It's the d20's that are more important to me.
Anyway, if the DM wants to buy some precision dice for me, I'm all for it. I want to be able to choose the colour, though.
I'd be cool with it, but I'm not emotionally attached to my dice the way some are. You might get some "Are you accusing me of cheating?!" reactions, but I'd be prone to think that players who react that way are indeed cheating. Or that they're emotionally attached to their dice, which I'm not prepared to admit is any healthier than cheating.
It's your call as to whether enforcing this is worth the possible bickering.
PS: I have a d10 that rolls 0 at least 40% of the time...I might be emotionally attached to that die. Just a little.
I personally would not like this, but that's mostly just because of a feeling of possession. They're MY dice, don't touch my dice, stuff like that.
If I had a player like you, I would simply buy the dice for them as a gift instead of buying them for them to use while at my game.
...multi-quote appears not to be working, or doesn't work the way that it used to... so I guess another post from me is coming up.
In my opinion..all die are somehow crooked..somehow..someway they are crooked. Impossible to at all get one that isn't even. the question is howmuch it matters...i guess if the DM is willing to supply them I'd have no problem...long as I get to pick the color? :P
It is my opinion that the DM in this situation is on a power trip. You found some dice you like and now you think everyone else should like the dice you like, and as the DM you think you are entitled to force them. Wrong.
No, a DM on a power trip would have bought the dice, made the rule that they have to be used, and thought any player that had a problem with it was just being a whiner - people on power trips don't ask for input from others, especially when those others are the people (or type of people) the person on the power trip believes they posses power over...
I found dice that are definitely random, and would like for my group to use dice that are definitely random - especially in the case of the player that, as I stated previously (and quite clearly), visibly gets frustrated when he rolls poorly, and rolls noticeable poor every session.
It is a game. Play to have fun. If you think a player lacks the character (not talking about an adventuring hero here) to not cheat, don't play with that person. Calling them a cheater, directly or indirectly, is not condusive to a fun environment for anyone involved.
It is a game, and we (my group) do play it to have fun - fun that I (and two other players for sure) believe could be enhanced/focused on more clearly if we were all using dice that, no matter how slighly, were more genuinely random.
I do not understand why people keep jumping to this wild conclusion that the only reason I could possible have for asking people to use different dice is a belief that they are cheating... I'll be honest, if I thought a player were cheating: I would have no problem taking a moment with them aside to say "Stop cheating. Don't argue, this isn't a trial - just don't cheat. If you get caught again you will leave this game." as that is what I have done every time I even suspected someone of cheating since the very first time I ever took up the screen as a DM.
...so yeah, anyone else wants to bring up how me wanting to use more-random dice is accusing my players of cheating (while using my dice that I am 100% positive they have never tampered with), please explain how and why you view it as an accusation?
As it is right now, my mind can only come up with this "well that's accusing them of cheating," response meaning that the poster is being overly defense... which we all know what being defensive against unstated acusations (a guilty conscience in other words) typically means.
long as I get to pick the color? :P
My players that actually have a favorite color will be supplied with dice of their favorite color, minor detail I guess I hadn't mentioned... but yeah, definitely letting the players pick out which color they get to use. Well... from the opaque colors available excluding black & red because I do not have a white paint pen for the numbers, nor do I have the spare money to purchase one just to fill in some numbers with (since I also don't feel the need to pay $3 dollars extra for each set to have the numbers hand painted.)
I would be accepting, but reluctant. My dice are something I very much enjoy. I like looking at them, using different colour combinations of them for mnemonic purposes, and playing with them between turns. I've chosen them because I like how they look and feel. Favorite colour is a part of it, but it's not the only part. I'm not very fond of precision dice because I find them generally hard to read and don't like how they look or feel.
I would be accepting, but reluctant. My dice are something I very much enjoy. I like looking at them, using different colour combinations of them for mnemonic purposes, and playing with them between turns. I've chosen them because I like how they look and feel. Favorite colour is a part of it, but it's not the only part. I'm not very fond of precision dice because I find them generally hard to read and don't like how they look or feel.
I definitely understand your points here (except for one) as I also used to purchase dice based on how they looked and felt - I even own a set that are pearl-like in their smooth surface texture, and a violent shade of purplish pink with white numbers and some sort of a swirling look to them because they were just so unique when I saw them I had to have them.
I can see precision dice being "generally hard to read," if the numbers have not been properly colored or are the "gem dice" sort - anything translucent is going to be harder to read than an opaque die.
But, when you get a set that are a bright color (white, blue, orange, yellow, green) or that provide a good contrast (the shades of purple and brown that Game Science would paint the numbers black on, or red and black with white numbers) the dice are actually able to be read clearly and easily from across the table given their plain set up and high contrast between number and die colors.
You're right about ht edifferent colours. It's just experience colouring my perception: 90% of the precision dice that have crossed tables I've been at have been unpainted gem dice, so that's what I first think of.
You shouldn't have a problem. My idea of how it goes (me as player)
DM: hey, I got some precision dice. Take a look.
Me: Cool! (apprazing dice and experimentaly rolling them) were'd you get them?
DM: (name store/ web site)
Me: how much are they? (very excited.)
Why would I fear quality dice? If people strongly resist, they likely have dice the are eather attached to or have rigged.
I'd be happy to do this, provided the dice looked COOL. And I would want to own my set. On a related side issue, our group has a particular d20 ("golden boy" - he's gold sparkle colour) which tends to roll a lot of 20's and 1's. He only gets brought out on special occasions, because we know he's a little skewed, when the PCs are really in the sh*t, and it's "all or nothing!". Everyone knows the odds are stacked a little more towards a 20, or a 1, and it heightens the suspense. Last time goldenboy came out, it allowed a PC to 20 on death save, get back up, and just about singlehanded save the party from a TPK (although the nactual char, a ranger, died at the very end of the fight). Sorry for such a long story, but point is, sometimes skewed dice are fun. Provided you all know they're skewed.
GameScience dice are built of pure win. They will feel more your own than any other die you've ever owned after to remove the burs (usually very small and east to clean compared to the mold marks on Chessex precision dice) and color in the numbers. A fine tip permanant marker works the best.
Just a thought here.
Say you go through the buying everyone dice then you play with then for a while and one of your players doesn't like them what then? Buy him new dice? Force him to continue using the dice you bought? Let's face it there are players that are very superstitious about dice. One of my players lines all his dice up in order of scale (d4, d6, d8 ... ect) and making sure they are on the highest side they can be and he can be picky about what dice is used on that day. I've also seen players change sets of dice mid encounter bucause they feel they have been let down. Forcing players to conform is something that will throw negitivity into a game.
Just a thought here.
Say you go through the buying everyone dice then you play with then for a while and one of your players doesn't like them what then? Buy him new dice? Force him to continue using the dice you bought? Let's face it there are players that are very superstitious about dice. One of my players lines all his dice up in order of scale (d4, d6, d8 ... ect) and making sure they are on the highest side they can be and he can be picky about what dice is used on that day. I've also seen players change sets of dice mid encounter bucause they feel they have been let down. Forcing players to conform is something that will throw negitivity into a game.
So now we are supposed to help manage our player's OCD too? There is nothing wrong with providing everyone with identical dice to ensure everyone is on equal footing.
I'm just pointing out some things for consideration is all. Let's face it many gamers have quirks about dice and rolling.
Personally I feel that dice don't matter or make a diffrence really, but I don't get in the way of peoples "OCD" or superstitions about dice either.
Provided you were buying me the dice, I think I would have no problem with it. If you didn't buy the dice, but said you didn't trust traditional die for whatever reason I think I would have to suggest an automated die roller instead. Mostly cause I'm not gonna go buy some dice, just cause my DM has some crazy nonsense reason.
I do buy that non precision dice can be made poorly and thus roll lopsided, and even have a few I specifically don't roll, I just don't buy that all non precision die are bad enough to not let us use them
I understand that you are asking us. But we're not in your game. Since you are not asking your players, I am trying to give you some perspective on the potential reaction of your players, as people who have not been asked.
If you are making free dice available as an optional resource, I find it hard to believe you'd need to ask anyone about the reaction. Therefore it makes sense to me to assume that you meant to enforce that everyone is using the new dice, and therein lies the perception of a power trip.
Assuming you claim the dice are optional .. are you going to absolutely never imply that your players should be using them instead of their personal dice? If people are going to feel untrusted by not using your shinies, then it is the same thing.
That's my perspective.
My only complaint would be missing out on the right numbers of various dice. If I'm throwing 2W and 3W attacks, I want 3dWhatever. If I'm running Twin Strike, I want two D20s (in different colours) and 2 (or 4!) W dice (in colours MATCHING the D20s) as well as as many D6 or D8 as I need for Hunter's Quarry or Sneak Attack or whatever.
I've got a set of dice that the rest of my group tell jokes about, but I don't really care about lending it out or using different dice. And it doesn't roll well (or poorly) for anyone but me. I have a metric ton of cheap dice, but they're all at least *reasonably* random.
One of the guys in the group has a D20 he always uses, and it's measurably, clearly, visibly *not* random. He'll never roll a 20 because the "1" face is opposite the 20 and the "1" is rounded nearly to nonexistence. It almost *can't* stand on that face. The rest of the damage is pretty severe, as well: his average roll is somewhere in the range of 7. But he likes the die. He won't even consider changing it.
Another has a die that's reasonably random, but was left in the rock tumbler for long enough that it's damn near as roon as a bloody novelty d100. It rolls FOREVER. It rolls off the table half the time, and the rule we always use is that rolls off the table don't count.
What I'm saying is, if there were actually enough dice for everyone to have a full set? I'd totally be behind this as a rule.
I don't really see a reason for the rule. Non-Casino standard dice are sufficiently random for DnD.
Personaly I roll on a pad of paper thats sitting on the table, if it goes off the pad I dont count the roll. This reduces my chances of knocking over minis or messing up dungeon tiles while retreiving my die.
Someone who is using trick dice or weighted dice is probably someone who I wouldn't play with again.
Hey AoB,
I think its a really generous offer and I kind of wish all games were played with precision dice.
I guess on the flip side people spend lots of money on dice and want to use them. Especially if its some of those giant metal dice from crystal castle.
Thanks again for all the replies people.
I appreciate all of you giving me some insight into what you think of the idea, and how you would expect players to react.
A status update: the 3 players (of 5) that I have already spoken with about the dice are all for the idea, especially since I have decided that instead of buying all these dice to add to my already extensive collection - I will be giving each player a set of dice as a "thank you," for being players in my game.
The two remaining are one player that currently doesn't own any dice, and my one player that owns the dice that are obviously skewed towards low numbers. Both of which I may have the chance to speak with about the dice this very evening.
one last thing: the idea that standard dice are sufficiently random for D&D - I agree. I have used many sets of standard dice over my decade plus being a gamer, and have not had the dice ruin the fun of the game for me... but I have also gone through the process of checking a die to see if it appears to favor certain numbers more than others by a considerable amount, and bought replacements if it turned out that they favored numbers I didn't want.
But yes, given that it takes a lot of effort to be sure what numbers a die favors and how severely, just picking up a die and rolling it is random enough.
I just happen to think that, since random enough is good enough, more random is better.
I would wholly support this idea, especially if you're supplying the dice. Within my gaming circle there are a few people with dice that have 'suspicious' rolling streaks. They annoy me both when I'm playing or judging. I'm considering switching to some sort of digital die rolling program that everyone is required to use when I judge.
In my group this would not work.
This is largely because several people in my group have superstitions about luck, they only use lucky dice etc.
I would wholly support this idea, especially if you're supplying the dice. Within my gaming circle there are a few people with dice that have 'suspicious' rolling streaks. They annoy me both when I'm playing or judging. I'm considering switching to some sort of digital die rolling program that everyone is required to use when I judge.
Beware some digital systems are not very random at all in the sense that dice are, they are just sequence generators. I think many players also expect *some* causal connection between them and the end result, even if officially it is completely unpredicable and unbiased - many digital systems take this away and generate abstract random numbers, which is not the same in my opinion.
Probably "shaker" phone apps would be OK (for me) if they use the shaking data as a seed for the number generator . . .
This just in: Now all of my players are not only on board with the idea, but also excited about it.
Thanks to all of you for giving me ideas as to how a player would react, it obviously helped as there was not even a bit of aprenhension in any of the players after here my "pitch," that I built up based on the collective feedback of this thread.
My player that rolls low spent another session tonight, and is definitely ready to switch despite his previous superstitions - I guess 4 years bad rolls is enough.
Beware some digital systems are not very random at all in the sense that dice are, they are just sequence generators.
If you're going to take that tack, then *dice* aren't random at all - after all, their final result, given the same initial state and roll, will be the same every time.
A good random number generator, which is to say just about *any* modern RNG, produces results where all possibilities are equally likely and no future result can be predicted from any number of past results. That's about as random as it's possible to get.
If you're going to take that tack, then *dice* aren't random at all - after all, their final result, given the same initial state and roll, will be the same every time.
Not what I was referring to.
Actually, you'd be surprised at how quickly quantum effects will multiply up. I'll have to double-check my sources, but have heard 12 cushion bounces quoted as effective quantum -> macro size randomisation on a snooker table. In other words, your statement may actually be not true . . . however, I'm not going to stick my neck out about that, I should be able to do the math (degree in physics) - might take me a while to unrust myself though . . .
A good random number generator, which is to say just about *any* modern RNG, produces results where all possibilities are equally likely and no future result can be predicted from any number of past results. That's about as random as it's possible to get.
Not all rollers use good RNGs was what I was referring to. You'd be surprised - the problem is well known, but very many coders still reach for the simplest internal rand() library when writing their projects.
Also, unpredictability sometimes comes at the cost of disconnected causality, which is my schtick on this. It's not the "players" unpredictable roll, it's a machine being brought in to generate randomness, so the causality is "in the machine", unless the players are somehow allowed to add entropy. IMO, the machine can go off and play the game by itself in this case . . .
Hello players, I have a curiosity as to what For my reasons as to why I would want to do this: I have already switched to a set of precision edge dice because, despite constantly trying out various d20s owned by the group - I had an average of 5+ critical hits on the party every session and rarely ever actually failed a roll. Since switching I have had a noticeble reduction in criticals per session and increase in failed rolls - or to put it differently, I have had more genuinely random results.
Also, I have one player that rolls low like clockwork (7-12 1s every session) who does not listen when I suggest he try one of the other dice available... even when it is one that I have rolled a 20 on 4 times in the last hour. This player gets visibly frustrated by this, but doesn't do anything to change the situation - so I want to "force" him to use dice that I know are genuinely random, as I am sure that will improve his play experience given that his current dice obviously favor 1s (and other low numbers).
Let me first correct you on your perception in regards to the statistical mistake you are making. The results form a few gaming sessions, or even alot of gaming sessions are only a statistical anomoly, and not factual. You don't have enough data from even a few dozen sessions to make any claim on how random some die are compared to others. In fact unless you roll the same die some several million times in a row (I mean literally several million times) then any results you are looking at are purely speculative.
Short, of course, obvious flaws in some dice, such as a rounded side on a D20 that it can't possibly balance on, notwithstanding of course, but if their is no vissible or obvious flaw in the dice then you won't likely see any visible pattern without thousands, even millions of rolls.
I use precision dice, because I can afford good dice, and I am still a lousy roller. I always have had poor luck with dice and having better dice has not effected this in any way. I own alot of dice too and I seem to always roll poorly no matter what dice I am using, but this is only my perception, I haven't actually done the statistical study that would be required to actually see if this is actually the case. In fact i probably haven't rolled enough dice in my lifetime to actually have enough data to make a claim.
Statistics are that you will get X number of poor rolls out of Y number of total rolls, and unless you actually roll Y many times you can't actually say that you are getting more or less then the average number of poor rolls. Most people haven't rolled enough dice in their life to actually have enough data to make a proper statistical curve with your friend who always rolls poorly has just had a string or "bad luck" or rather hasn't rolled enough to average out and so will like most either fall above or below average until he does.
Second, Luck, superstition, this plays into rolls and perhaps does effet the die, if you beleive in such things or not. Someone who is always unlucky might be unknowingly effecting his rolls without realizing it, actually rolling the dice in such a way to make it land on low numbers. This seems unlikely but the mind is actually capable of making the calculations required to predict how a dice will land based on it's wieght, shape and how you throw it, thus skewing the results. Considering how much data our minds are able to process/second this would be an easy task, and some studies have been done that support this, I even know a person who can flip coins and have it land on heads or tails as he desires, although that would be easier to tamper with then dice rolls. It would be easier for this to effect presision dice then it would cheaper dice, for obvious reasons.
That said it is possible that our perception of "luck" or how well a die will roll could effect our results. If so then changing to different dice may have a negative effect if the person beleives that those dice aren't as lucky as their old ones. In fact it may be your perception that the precision dice are better that is making you get better results. If so then you don't need better dice, you need a better randomizing factor that illiminates the human component form the rolling process.
I myself use an Entrophy Tower to roll. It is a box with a slot on the top to drop the dice into, they bounce down over a series of ramps and posts and come out a slot on the bottom, the process randomizes the roll without me having any control over the randomizing process. Since i have started using it I have gotten fewer lousy rolls (like i have said before i am unlucky with dice) Of course i haven't enough imperial data to base that claim upon, I would have to roll millions of times over to actually have enough data wit, but it seems to work for me (that and it's cool)
Using a cup to roll the dice with also helps elliminate the human ellement, as they aren't actually handling the dice dirrectly and thus have less control to manipulate them. I would suggest the tower of entrophy to your friend who always rolls low though.
The quantum snooker balls reference: "Molecules, Snooker and quantum uncertainty" heading here: motivate.maths.org/conferences/conf3/c3_...
It's not cushion bounces, but ball recoils. There's an important difference.
Basically it relies on the fact that some recoiling objects (in this case spheres on a snooker table) will tend to amplify differences in angles. Twelve such amplifications are enough to be covered by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, such that even if you know the initial conditions to the limits allowed by (currently understood) physics you cannot predict the angle of last recoil out of 12 balls to within 90 degrees!
Now there are plenty of dice trajectories that are not covered by this logic. However, some are, and for those there is no known physical reason why the results would be predicable even if you managed to position every subatomic particle into the same starting state (position, velocity etc). Hence, at least for some types of rolling, dice are just as random as diode noise or other mahine-based sources of entropy. Whether real-world die rolls are covered by that, I couldn't possibly say.
Let me first correct you on your perception in regards to the statistical mistake you are making. The results form a few gaming sessions, or even alot of gaming sessions are only a statistical anomoly, and not factual. You don't have enough data from even a few dozen sessions to make any claim on how random some die are compared to others. In fact unless you roll the same die some several million times in a row (I mean literally several million times) then any results you are looking at are purely speculative.
You fail basic statistics.
Determining *with certainty* is impossible. However, basic chi-square analysis can take a relatively small (a couple of hundred - easily recordable in a few sessions) number of results and determine the probability that those results were reached with a random die. The only question is whether *you* think a 95% chance they're not random, or a 99% chance they're not random, or a 99.9% chance they're not random, is enough for you to worry or not.
Statistics are that you will get X number of poor rolls out of Y number of total rolls, and unless you actually roll Y many times you can't actually say that you are getting more or less then the average number of poor rolls.
No, seriously. That's like saying that a poll saying 30% of people like chocolate ice cream can't be accurate unless it actually surveys *everyone*.
Second, Luck, superstition, this plays into rolls and perhaps does effet the die,
You fail statistics *forever*.
Someone who is always unlucky might be unknowingly effecting his rolls without realizing it, actually rolling the dice in such a way to make it land on low numbers. This seems unlikely but the mind is actually capable of making the calculations required to predict how a dice will land based on it's wieght, shape and how you throw it, thus skewing the results.
Easy solution: Don't look at the die. When you don't know what face it in what direction before rolling it, you can't influence it, even unconsciously. But this isn't "luck".
It's fair to say rolls need to be in the open and have defined rules on what happens if a die lands crooked or falls off the table, but anything more donkey-retentive than that you have major trust issues and should question while you're playing together. It's the DM's campaign, but it's everyone's game. The DM is not the players' lord and master.
You fail basic statistics.Determining *with certainty* is impossible. However, basic chi-square analysis can take a relatively small (a couple of hundred - easily recordable in a few sessions) number of results and determine the probability that those results were reached with a random die. The only question is whether *you* think a 95% chance they're not random, or a 99% chance they're not random, or a 99.9% chance they're not random, is enough for you to worry or not.
The original poster didn't record his rolls, nor make any such chart, nor did he present the hard data on his rolls for which to base any conclusions, just an unquantified speculative observation.
A basic analysis after a couple of hundred rolls will start to indicate a patern, but won't absolutely determine if the rolls are completely random or not due to, well the randomness of rolling dice. It's not until a very large number or rolls are obtained (more then hundreds) that it will be for a certainty.
After a couple of hundred rolls, getting fewer 20s then 1s may or may not indicate a pattern, but unless it is a very significant offset, then it could be accounted for by just bling luck (or lack thereof) it's not conclusive unless there is an obvious deviation, but then again such a deviation should be very visible from looking at the dice (you know the opposite side is vissibly rounded)
The overall point being that, barring serriously damaged dice, that the precision dice aren't really an issue, and his observations of a streak of bad rolls by a player are not conclusive. The player may simply have expereinced a bad run of luck, nothing more.
And again, if the player's mental state can effect his rolls (entirely possible) then more precise dice could possible only worsen the effect as the mind can more accurately control and predict their outcome to achieve poor rolls.
Determining *with certainty* is impossible. However, basic chi-square analysis can take a relatively small (a couple of hundred - easily recordable in a few sessions) number of results and determine the probability that those results were reached with a random die. The only question is whether *you* think a 95% chance they're not random, or a 99% chance they're not random, or a 99.9% chance they're not random, is enough for you to worry or not.
You can pick out a strong bias using this technique quite easily. It says next to nothing about unpredictability.
If dice in a D&D game are not strongly biased (say that the numbers 1-10 on a D20 are just 5% more likely, and the numbers 11-20 a matching amount less likely), you won't see anything concrete from chi-squared without very many rolls.
Interpretation of chi-squared is not straightforward. There is not " a 95% chance they're not random" if Chi-Squared comes up 0.05. There is a "5% chance this could happen with an unbiased source" . . . which is the same as rolling a 20 on a D20. Declaring a D20 of being biased if Chi-Squared comes out with p =~ 0.05 is almost the same as declaring it biased if you roll it once and it comes up 20!
So MrCustomer has not necessarily failed his stats. In practice you want p very low indeed before declaring bias in a supposedly random source. Or you run other tests (I've used a meta-Chi-Squared to assess PRNGs for instance).
None of this would affect my response to the DM buying some cool dice. I'm not actually convinced that these precision dice would make any difference to my game. However, I'm more than happy to use dice provided - at the very least it's one less thing to remember to bring to the session :-)
It's fair to say rolls need to be in the open and have defined rules on what happens if a die lands crooked or falls off the table, but anything more donkey-retentive than that you have major trust issues and should question while you're playing together. It's the DM's campaign, but it's everyone's game. The DM is not the players' lord and master.
Right... sure... asking someone to use dice I can measurable determine are actually what they are advertised to be (a die with X number of sides that all share the same dimensions, with a smaller margin of error) means that I have "major trust issues," with the person.
Wrong. The automotive equivalent of that is saying that, were I to say "I think your car is in worse shape than in could be," I am exposing that I do not trust the person's driving.
Now, to your last sentence - It is everyone's campaign. I may have decided how it starts, but from their it's up to the characters actions to determine where things go.
It is also everyone's game. I may be the host, but there isn't a game until the players show up... that has nothing to do with the dice though, as those are just a tool used to play the game - a tool that I happen to have quality standards for. Note: if the whole group using these dice would make the game more enjoyable for me, and does not in turn make the game less enjoyable for someone else... well, then the game has been bettered by the choice to switch to these dice.
And no, I am not any of the player's lord nor master... I am their DM though, which means that when I come up with a rule they have the same rights that any player has; to choose to accept the rule and continue playing, or to refuse the rule - even if it means walking away from the game.
I can no more force the players to use the dice than I can be forced by the players to let everyone re-roll every result of 5 or less to see if they can get higher.
I think you may be either taking something massively out of context, or have a personal issue with the idea of a DM suggesting any sort of rules for his players to follow - I wonder, would you have the same reaction where the proposed dice-rule simply "you can only roll dice that I can see the results on from where I sit?"
If not - why the double standard?
Update on the progress of this plan for my group: All of my players have picked out their prefered color, and the order of a set for each has been placed. 7 sets cost me just under $40 after shipping... I expect that they will arrive between Thursday and the following Tuesday. I am anxious to sand off the mold spurs and hand paint the numbers... I may even see if I have a bit of spare cloth and string with which to make a dice bag for each of my players. The players reactions have ranged from "Thank you, that's really nice of you to get a set of dice for me," to "Sweet! Oh, lime green is my favorite color, this rocks!" One player even said "Oh wow, thanks man," because of my intent to hand paint the numbers... but I think they are under the impression that it is a difficult process.
And again, if the player's mental state can effect his rolls (entirely possible) then more precise dice could possible only worsen the effect as the mind can more accurately control and predict their outcome to achieve poor rolls.
"Entirely possible" in the sense that every one of the trillions of atoms in my laptop might suddenly vibrate in the same direction causing it to accelerate at the speed of light, blow a hole in my ceiling, achieve escape velocity and become the first human made object to orbit a distant star? Sure.
"Entirely possible" in the sense of the reality based universe we actually live in? No. Not really.
And again, if the player's mental state can effect his rolls (entirely possible) then more precise dice could possible only worsen the effect as the mind can more accurately control and predict their outcome to achieve poor rolls."Entirely possible" in the sense that every one of the trillions of atoms in my laptop might suddenly vibrate in the same direction causing it to accelerate at the speed of light, blow a hole in my ceiling, achieve escape velocity and become the first human made object to orbit a distant star? Sure.
"Entirely possible" in the sense of the reality based universe we actually live in? No. Not really.
"Entirely possible" in the sense that a different mental state (all else being roughly equal) would result in a different sequence of rolls. Absolutely. Your mental state is not disconnected from your neural pathways, physiology, muscle control etc. You feel different, you shake, roll different = different results. A well-rolled dice is a chaotic system, and very sensitive to tiniest things at the outset.
"Entirely possible" in the sense that you might exert unconsious control and effectively cheat roll bad rolls by placing the die or dropping it onto a low-scoring side. Yes, I agree this is possible. I have seen this kind of rolling done both positively and negatively. Mostly it was not intentional. I've caught myself doing it even.
"Entirely possible" in the sense that a feeling of impending doom equals more rolling 1s, even though the rolling is thorough. Probably not - unleash the physics!
. . . my point being that posters are mis-interpetting a lot of what MrCustomer has said. I am not sure I agree with everything 100%, but no need to jump on him for taking the psychological angle.
My DM just called me out on my dice during last nights game. I was using a d20 from a Magic set from a while back for a death saving throw and passed. He showed me that all the high number were all grouped together and that dice shouldn't be like that. After looking at every other d20 of mine I saw it was true.
I got away with it that time but I won't be using it anymore, I guess all the numbers are together so it makes it easier to go up or down when playing the actual game it came with. I can't see how just regular dice could be a problem but one like mine I could understand keeping out.
I have approximately 2 pounds of dice, all neatly sorted in a container with little bins, that I take to all my games. It is a treasure I have accumulated over many many years...it's my horde. I would be happy to buy precision dice (and have recently considered it) but they would just add to my horde. I buy dice every time I go into my local gaming shop (which means it's a good thing I don't go in there very often). So, I would be happy for more dice, but I still have all these other pretties that need to be used. I think I would be annoyed at being told that I could only use one set of dice. 2 of my players do that (the third is my fiance and I bought him a pound O'dice for Christmas so he is getting to be like me. I would have to say that I am one of those people who look at dice as being temporarily cursed and I will change out which dice I am throwing in the middle of my turn because I don't like the way they are rolling.
So, I guess what I am saying is...if I were the player, I'd love to have more dice, it would just chafe me to no end though to be forced to use only those. The others might get lonely.
I had this idea too, but I couldn't afford it.
Even when you win a fight you still regret being in the fight.
And again, if the player's mental state can effect his rolls (entirely possible) then more precise dice could possible only worsen the effect as the mind can more accurately control and predict their outcome to achieve poor rolls."Entirely possible" in the sense that every one of the trillions of atoms in my laptop might suddenly vibrate in the same direction causing it to accelerate at the speed of light, blow a hole in my ceiling, achieve escape velocity and become the first human made object to orbit a distant star? Sure.
"Entirely possible" in the sense of the reality based universe we actually live in? No. Not really.
Well first the odds of every atom in your laptop vibrating in the same direction is so high that it would be considered as never occuring, and secondly at most it would cause a release of photons moving in the same direction (similair to how lasers work) and would at most seem to have a beam of light glowing from it.
What I mean by possible is that there have been studies to this effect to see if dice can be subliminally affected by the subject that have yielded enough evidence to indicate a deviation from the predicted odds. Although some have wildly contributed these to psycokenetic powers, ignoring the less credible interpretations of the results, they do show that the unconscience mind can effect seemingly random events.
I say seemlingly random because there is human contact with the dice themselves, and we control how they are thrown. Still the results of the studies didn't show a large enough deviation to be absolutely conclusive, they still indicate that the odds were affected.