Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 11:30:15	Introduction Important Errata Frequently Asked Questions (and their answers!) Multiclassing Your Rogue Prestige Classes With Lots of Skills Prestige Classes with Sneak Attack Pros and Cons of the Races Useful Equipment for Rogues A Rogue's Guide to Combat Useful Optimization Threads Other Useful Links Third Party Material Welcome to the first Guide here on the What's a Player to Do? forum. Hopefully this guide continues to grow and evolve. But what is this guide, you ask? Good question. The intention - at least as of this writing - is simply to provide a tool for players interested in playing a rogue. Information is scattered all over the place -- Official errata docs, Official WotC FAQs, threads all over the place. So this is an attempt to bring most of that together, with a smattering of my opinions mixed in. Ideally, this grows. To that end, I'll (hopefully) be making regular updates, rearranging as needed and adding information and tidbits you provide. Simply, there's just no way I can find all the useful thread and other links; my opinions aren't the only ones that matter; my sources are incomplete. So, I need your help! Be critical and point out my mistakes; offer your own viewpoints; give me some information from books I don't have. While I'm starting the thread, in the end it belongs to the community. Let's make this the ultimate guide for rogues! All official errata documents can be found on this page of WotC's site. All quotes in this section come from the PHB Errata unless otherwise indicated. Rogue proficiencies in the PHB are incorrect. Rogue Proficiency Player's Handbook, page 50 Add “sap” to the list of weapons with which a rogue is proficient. Change text to read as follows: . . . plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword.
#2 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 11:30:46	reserved, in case I need more space
#3 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 11:33:17	Alrighty... I talked about creating "Guides" so here's a stab at a first one. Help me out! Check my facts! If I have anything wrong, please let me know. I'll also need help compiling some of this information. I'll post up a list of books I don't have. If somebody could PM me the prestige classes from that book that meet the criteria for one of the two PrC lists, I'd appreciate it. That list is coming later. Right now, I need some lunch...
#4 orchomenos Mar 18, 2008 12:27:08	You forgot a question in your FAQ... Can I make more than one Sneak Attack in the same round?
#5 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 12:39:31	Alrighty... I lack the following products. Would people be kind enough to volunteer to give me a list of any prestige classes from these books that either have 6 or more skill points per level or grant sneak attack (and how much over how many levels). Anauroch: The Empire of Shade Barrow of the Forgotten King Bastion of Broken Souls Champions of Ruin Champions of Valor City of Stormreach Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave Deep Horizon Drow of the Underdark Dungeon Survival Guide Elder Evils Exemplars of Evil Expedition to Castle Ravenloft Expedition to the Demonweb Pits Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk Expedition to Undermountain Explorer’s Handbook Eyes of the Lich Queen Faiths of Eberron Fantastic Locations: City of Peril Fantastic Locations: Dragondown Grotto Fantastic Locations: Fane of the Drow Fantastic Locations: Fields of Ruin Fantastic Locations: Hellspike Prison Fantastic Locations: The Frostfell Rift Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss Forge of Fury, The Fortress of the Yuan-ti Grasp of the Emerald Claw Heart of Nightfang Spire Hero Builder's Guidebook Heroes of Horror Lord of the Iron Fortress Magic of Eberron Magic of Incarnum Mysteries of the Moonsea Player's Guide to Eberron Power of Faerûn Races of Eberron Red Hand of Doom Scourge of the Howling Horde Secrets of Sarlona Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land Shadows of the Last War Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, The Shining South Sons of Gruumsh Speaker in Dreams, The Standing Stone, The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook Sunless Citadel, The The Forge of War The Sinister Spire Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow, and Truename Magic Twilight Tomb, The Voyage of the Golden Dragon Whispers of the Vampire's Blade Yeah, it's a long list; but a good chunk of that list is adventures, which probably lack any prestige classes but I added them for completeness. So, if you could help me out by sending me info about prestige classes in any of those books it would be appreciated! Thanks!
#6 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 12:40:43	You forgot a question in your FAQ... Can I make more than one Sneak Attack in the same round? The answer for that is part of the answer to question A. I mean, I can add it explicitly if people think it's needed, but the material is covered.
#7 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 13:55:17	I've received info for Tome of Battle. Thanks to Mad_Jack for the info!
#8 Zherog Mar 18, 2008 19:44:18	Thanks to Merestil Haye for confirming Spell Compendium doesn't have prestige classes, and for providing info on Hand of the Winged Masters from Dragon Magic.
#9 Zherog Mar 19, 2008 14:03:32	I've added the start of the "multiclassing" chapter.
#10 Zherog Mar 20, 2008 8:41:56	Thanks to Salla for providing me the info found in Dragonmarked. That stuff is now in the Prestige Class indexes, as are many of the 3.0 prestige classes. Again, any comments or corrections would be appreciated. If you can supply prestige class info from the books listed previously, that would be a big help - even if it's just to say the book has none. If you can provide any 3rd party books that have interesting material for rogues, that would also be appreciated.
#11 shaggy_shaggs Mar 20, 2008 9:08:48	We'll start our discussion by looking at the other races in the PHB. At a later date, I'll add in other base classes, such as the swashbuckler, warlock, ninja, etc. Suspect you meant other classes here. Certainly hope goblins get some consideration when it comes to Races, those little guys are so good at being rogues.
#12 Zherog Mar 20, 2008 9:21:32	Thanks! Good catch! When I examine races, I'm going to start with the ones in the PHB. But yes - I intend to go also include stuff from other sources, including the Monster Manual. Goblins (and hobgoblins and bugbears) would certainly be on the list of races I would consider adding.
#13 Zherog Mar 20, 2008 10:18:33	Thanks to JasonOrlandoHawk for providing info from Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Psionic, Heroes of Battle, and Oriental Adventures.
#14 drmorganes Mar 21, 2008 8:12:21	Z, You're missing a few prestige classes from Complete Adventurer: PrCs that increase Sneak Attack Daggerspell Mage Daggerspell Shaper Dread Pirate (Dishonorable) Ghost-Faced Killer (Increases Sudden Strike) Nightsong Enforcer Nightsong Infiltrator Shadowbane Inquisitor (Making that Paladin/Rogue multiclass option that much more interesting!) Shadowbane Stalker (Also boosts Cleric spell casting!) Shadowmind Spymaster Streetfighter PrCs with lots of skill points Bloodhound (Good skill synergy) Daggerspell Mage (Poor skill synergy) Daggerspell Shaper (Poor skill synergy) Dread Pirate (Fair skill synergy) Dungeon Delver (Excellent skill synergy) Exemplar (Perfect skill synergy; class has all skills on its list) Fochlucan Lyrist (Excellent skill synergy) Nigthsong Infiltrator (Excellent skill synergy) Shadowbane Stalker (Excellent skill synergy) Spymaster (Excellent skill synergy) Thief-Acrobat (Fair skill synergy) A quick note on my skill synergy ratings: Poor: There are few common skills. "Essential" rogue skills like Open Lock, Disable Device, and Use Magic Device are missing. Fair: A handful of common skills, generally focusing on either stealth OR social skills. The class my have the "essential" skills listed above, but is missing too many other common skills for a better ranking. Good: Has stealth and social skills, but still missing "essential" rogue skills. Excellent: The two class skills are almost exactly the same, with only one or two skills missing from the common list. Perfect: well, duh... ;)
#15 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 8:30:59	I'm missing everything from Complete Adventurer - I didn't get to it yet. Thanks for saving me the work, though. :D It's one less book I have to worry about digging through this weekend. edit: Hey, doc - how much sneak attack do those classes grant?
#16 kurobara Apr 05, 2008 11:55:41	Dragon Devotee from Races of the Dragon gives the option of more sneak attack (up to +2d6 over 5 levels - offers fighter bonus feats at two of the levels with the option of advancing SA/sudden strike/skirmish instead). I'd like to see Marrulurk from Sandstorm covered when you do get to races - the Monstrous Humanoid racal HD (and +1 LA) are a kick in the proverbial nuts when it comes to skill points, but for a they also shore up a few Rogue weaknesses, and also it gets as much sneak attack in those racial HD as a rogue of the same number of levels along with some good bonus feats for ranged rogues and some lovely stat adjustments. I would never consider it for a skillmonkey, but for a heavily combat-focused Rogue I personally think it's worth a look.
#17 Zherog Apr 05, 2008 17:35:57	I'd like to see Marrulurk from Sandstorm covered when you do get to races ... I don't have that book (as mentioned in the list of books from which I need PrC info). The "races guide" is something I want to get done within the next week. The goal for the first round of it, so to speak, is to hit the PHB races and also the LA +0 and +1 races from the Monster Manual. From there, I'll branch into other low ECL races. I don't think it'll be possible to cover every possible race - there's just too many. So my goal, at least now, is to cover the ones that could be used in a low-level game. I think as it evolves, though, higher ECL races could get covered.
#18 shaggy_shaggs Apr 05, 2008 17:45:06	Will you be covering useful low-ECL templates as well? Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, for example. That lost level sucks, but at least you can make that up, unlike LA. Does a lot to alleviate rogue squishiness, that d12 undead hitdie is about as good as a d6 backed by a 16 Con, and immunity to crits and a lot of the horrible things traps can do to you is very handy.
#19 Zherog Apr 05, 2008 20:14:12	Sure, I can cover templates. Eventually.
#20 Optimator Apr 06, 2008 10:50:38	Cool guide; I look forward to it. I think a section devoted to sneak-attacking options would be good. Comments on things like spring attack, TWFing, or short-range archery. A part about which tactic works well, which are bad or dangerous at certain levels, best ways to achieve said attacks, etc.
#21 Zherog Apr 06, 2008 18:52:01	I've added Prestige Class info for Complete Divine, Races of the Dragon, Races of Destiny and Complete Arcane (there aren't any). More to come... edit: also added Races of the Wild and checked Libris Mortis (none in there) edit 2: And now Savage Species edit 3: Ghost Walk has been checked, and doesn't appear to have any
#22 shaggy_shaggs Apr 06, 2008 18:58:35	Darkrunner and Keeper of the Cerulean Sign (Lords of Madness) are both PrCs in the 6+Int skill points club. Neither offers any sneak attack advancement. Not that it's on your list of books you don't have, but it's a bit of work saved I suppose.
#23 Zherog Apr 06, 2008 19:17:09	Thanks, Shaggy! They've been added, as has Deities and Demigods. And I'll continue to slog through my books this evening. Here's some stuff folks can do for me: 1) Am I missing any methods of making a target lose its Dex bonus to AC? 2) Do you have any 3rd party books that a player of a rogue might find interesting? The book doesn't have to be all about rogues - just something with useful rogue material. 3) There have been some great suggestions (races to include, combat styles, including templates that might be useful). Keep the ideas coming! And, of course, there's a whole bunch o' other guides that could be done. If anybody has the inclination to start something similar for another class (or race, or alignment, or whatever), I would love to see it, and I'll be sure to include a link in the Important Links thread stickied at the top of the forum. edit: Dragons of Eberron doesn't appear to have any PrCs at all edit 2: Manual of the Planes and Races of Stone are done
#24 shaggy_shaggs Apr 06, 2008 19:26:33	It's a bit indirect, but for rogues with magic or poison on hand, damaging/draining any of Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha to 0 will leave a target helpless in various ways, and therefore vulnerable to sneak attack. Draining Con to 0 just kills them and renders sneak attack a bit pointless.
#25 cariyaga Apr 06, 2008 19:45:07	I hope it's not too premature, but Catfolk, from Races of the Wild, is a fantastic race for rogues. +1 LA, +4 Dex, +2 Cha, 40 ft. Movement speed, bonuses to Listen and Move Silently, as well as +1 Natural Armor and Low-Light Vision.
#26 Zherog Apr 06, 2008 20:15:29	It's a bit indirect, but for rogues with magic or poison on hand, damaging/draining any of Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha to 0 will leave a target helpless in various ways, and therefore vulnerable to sneak attack. Interesting method. I'll add it. Draining Con to 0 just kills them and renders sneak attack a bit pointless. Indeed. I hope it's not too premature, but Catfolk, from Races of the Wild, is a fantastic race for rogues. I don't know that it's premature, but I'm looking to get prestige classes done first; then I'm looking to get PHB races, followed by Monster Manual races. After that, I'm definitely looking to add races from other books - including the catfolks. (I'll also be looking to add a multiclassing guide to classes other than the PHB ones, such as warlock). * Draconomicon, Complete Scoundrel, and Miniatures Handbook are added. More to come another night.
#27 cariyaga Apr 06, 2008 20:21:37	One word: Pixies. +4 LA, worth every level of it.
#28 psionichamster Apr 07, 2008 0:21:12	another point for a barbarian dip... spd +10 for the early dash sneak attack -the hamster
#29 Zherog Apr 07, 2008 11:45:57	Don't know how I missed that, actually. Updated.
#30 Zherog Apr 10, 2008 19:11:11	Complete Warrior and Complete Champion have been added to the PrC lists. edit: also added Epic Level Handbook and Book of Exalted Deeds; checked Frostburn, Weapons of Legacy, Dungeonscape, PHB2 and DMG2. More another day.
#31 Zherog Apr 20, 2008 20:00:49	Added Prestige Classes From: Eberron Campaign Setting, Sharn: City of Towers, Secrets of Xen'drik, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Player's Guide to Faerun, Races of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Silver Marches, Lords of Darkness, Book of Vile Darkness, and Planar Handbook. Also checked Magic of Faerun and Arms & Equipment Guide. More to come tonight. I think... edit: also added Serpent Kingdoms, Underdark, and Unapproachable East. Checked City of the Spider Queen and City of Splendors: Waterdeep. I think that's the last of my WotC books. I'll double check to be sure. Once again, I'd like to ask for folks with books listed in post 5 to drop me a note with any PrCs that have either 6 skill points per level or that grant sneak attack. Thanks.
#32 jasonorlandohawk Apr 21, 2008 10:04:25	Dragons of Faerun No useful PrC's. Lost Empires of Faerun The Cultist of the Shattered Peak (p.10) -High Skill Points -Sneak Attack +2d6/5 levels -Also gains Death Attack (as Assassin class ability) The Magelord (p.18) -Sneak Attack +3d6/10 levels -Really awesome wizard PrC that requires a little bit of Rogue to enter.
#33 Zherog Apr 21, 2008 11:20:59	Thanks, Jason. List updated!
#34 Zherog Apr 21, 2008 12:54:37	Added Stormwrack, Sandstorm, and Fiendish Codex 2. Thanks to Merestil for providing the info!
#35 Zherog Apr 23, 2008 9:15:18	the list of books I need PrC info from has been updated -- the list is current, and I still need info from all those WotC sources. If anybody has any of those books, please let me know (either via a post or PM) about Prestige Classes that have 6 or more skill points, and PrCs with sneak attack (or equivalent). If the book has neither, please let me know that so I can remove it from the list. Thanks for the help I've received so far. Another list I'd love to update is useful third party books; if you have a book from a publisher other than WotC that contains material useful to a rogue, please let me know so I can add it. I hope to get PHB races updates this week.
#36 Zherog Apr 25, 2008 16:27:57	Added Book of Roguish Luck to the list of third party material.
#37 Zherog Apr 25, 2008 16:41:36	Added links to two prestige classes available on Rich Burlew's site: The Divine Trickster and the Elemental Infiltrator.
#38 mr_lionhart Apr 25, 2008 23:07:12	Unseen Seer in Complete Mage has Sneak Attack (Well, technically, They get a "Damage Bonus" to either sneak, skirmish or sudden strike. +4d6 over 10 levels total) and have 6+int skill Points. I didn't see it in the missing book list, nor in either list of 6+int or the grant sneak attack list, so I decided to say something.
#39 Zherog Apr 26, 2008 9:34:25	Thanks. I have Complete Mage, but it wasn't on my bookshelf (my wife was using it to look up stuff for her evoker). Adding details now... edit: added! Thanks again for double checking it, Mr. Lionhart!
#40 MrCustomer Apr 26, 2008 20:35:01	Cleric Worshiping a "trickster" god, such as Olidammara, fits the flavor of many rogue characters, and a level or two in cleric allows you to build upon that flavor. -Olidammara's favoured weapon is the Rapier, which is a good rogue weapon -the Luck Domain grants a free reroll once daily (very useful indeed) Turn undead will be practically useless, except as fuel for divine feats Divine Counterspell, available in the PHB-2 can be chosen as an alternative to Turn Undead, this allows the rogue to counterspell casters as many times per day as they could use Turn Undead and is a good choice for any cross-classed Cleric Also Sneak Attack can be used with Touch attacks, this includes spells like Inflict Wounds and even Slay Living. It shoudl also be mentioned in the Pros for Sorceror and Wizard that Sneak attack works with Touch attacks, ranged touch attacks, rays etc
#41 mr_lionhart Apr 26, 2008 22:27:32	It's aright Z. It would great if you could get all the material needed :D Tome of Magic PrC Shadowsmith (6+int)
#42 Zherog Apr 27, 2008 1:16:05	It's aright Z. It would great if you could get all the material needed :D Tome of Magic PrC Shadowsmith (6+int) Thanks -- added to the list!